RMSD and watches worth over £2.5K in SC

[markrlondon]

Note added on 28/01/2015: This message is in need of updating to consolidate new information and to cover the replacement of Royal Mail Airsure and International Signed For with International Tracked & Signed, International Tracked, and International Signed. The maximum compensation on the new Royal Mail international services is now £250 (compared to £500 on the older Airsure and International Signed For services). It is still the case that no Parcelforce service provides compensation for watches. The RMSD information is still correct.

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N.B. Note added on 18/12/2013: There may be some ambiguity in the compensation rules for Airsure and International Signed For items. Please see http://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.ph...=1#post2645037 and following messages, dated 1st March 2013. However, the situation for Royal Mail Special Delivery (RMSD) is as it always was (as per the rest of this message). See http://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.ph...=1#post2970558, dated 18th December 2013, for details. The remaining apparent ambiguity for Airsure and ISF will be addressed in future.

---

I've recently noticed a few watches worth more than £2.5K in SC where the vendor has stated that he will post by RMSD "insured up to £2500" (or words, explicit or implicit, to that effect).

E.g.
"offer the watch at £2,895 including UK RMSD insured to £2,500"
"£3300 incl RMSD"
"I am looking for £6000 for the watch, shipped RMSD (insured for £2.5k)"

NO!!!!!

Once and for all, RMSD does not work that way. An item that is sent by RMSD and which is worth more than the maximum RMSD compensation level of £2500 is NOT INSURED AT ALL! Not even the first £2500-worth of its value is insured. If it is worth more than £2500 then all Royal Mail insurance on it is invalidated.

Note also that Parcelforce is no better: Valuable items such as watches are NOT INSURED AT ALL by any Parcelforce service (whether domestic or international).

I've not provided references in this post since, a) they can be found in several other TZ-UK threads, and b) they can be found on the Royal Mail and Parcelforce websites (if you look hard enough).

To summarise:
(1) There is no Parcelforce service (neither domestic nor international) that is safe for sending watches of any value. I.e. watches are not insurable by any Parcelforce service whatsoever. This is true whatever Post Office staff might tell you! Paying extra for enhanced Parcelforce insurance is worthless for watches (as well as for most other valuables, in fact).

(2) The only Royal Mail domestic service which will insure watches is RMSD and this only goes up to £2500 total value. Above that value all insurance is invalidated.

(3) The only Royal Mail international services which will insure watches are Airsure and International Signed For, and both of these only go to up a maximum of £500. As with RMSD, if you exceed that value then all insurance is invalidated.

(4) The ONLY way to send a watch valued at more than £2500 with insurance using a domestic Royal Mail/Parcelforce service as the carrier is to purchase extra third party insurance from a separate insurer (see message below for links).

(5) The ONLY way to send a watch valued at more than £500 with insurance using an international Royal Mail/Parcelforce service as the carrier is to purchase extra third party insurance from a separate insurer (see message below for links).




Edits:-
1) 15th November 2011: Corrected typos.
2) 18th December 2011: Improved text.
3) 23rd March 2013: Added caution text at top of message and link to message with analysis of new regulations: http://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.ph...=1#post2645037.
4) 18th December 2013 at 19:46: Updated caution text at top of message since RMSD compensation rules are in fact as originally stated in this message. See http://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.ph...=1#post2970558. Also improved text slightly.
5) 21st December 2013 at 07:17: Fixed typo.
6) 28th January 2015 at 05:38: Add additional update text at top of message.
7) 7th December 2016 at 04:00: Added these temporary placeholder links for future updates:

Personal Customers Help Centre - Making a claim for a lost item https://personal.help.royalmail.com/...etail/a_id/319
Business Customers Help Centre - Our retail compensation policy for lost items https://business.help.royalmail.com/...for-lost-items
Personal Customers Help Centre - Royal Mail's retail compensation policy for lost items https://personal.help.royalmail.com/...etail/a_id/321
Postal Service Act 2000 - Non-contract products and services http://www.royalmail.com/non-contrac...and-conditions
Royal Mail Special Delivery Guaranteed http://www.royalmail.com/personal/uk...ecial-delivery
Special Delivery Guaranteed by 9am Terms and Conditions http://www.royalmail.com/sites/defau..._April2013.pdf

[markrlondon]

Some links to references:

Royal Mail/RMSD: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=187047&st=0&sk=t&sd=a#p1891183
Parcelforce: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=187047&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=15 #p1891504

Useful link about Parcelpro: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=152217
Read this thread for other information about separate third party insurers.

Parcelpro: http://www.parcelpro.com/
MBE: http://www.mbe.co.uk/
Transit2Insure: http://www.transit2insure.com/

For the avoidance of doubt, I have no association with Parcelpro, MBE or Transit2Insure. I'm sure there are other third party insurers but these are the only ones I know of.




**edit 17/12/2011**
Added link to Transit2Insure and corrected text.

**edit 18/12/2011**
Updated text.

**edit 22/02/2012**
Corrected typo.

[robcat]

Once and for all, RMSD does not work that way. An item that is sent by RMSD and which is worth more than the maximumn RMSD compensation level of £2500 is NOT INSURED AT ALL! Not even the first £2500-worth of its value is insured. If it is worth more than £2500 then all Royal Mail insurance on it is invalidated.

I've only been on tz-uk for a few months so I presume this must have come up previously. There is a general principle that you're not allowed to "under insure" an item, so if it exceeds the maximum insurable value, it isn't insured at all. Sometimes it is described as maximmum compensation, which is a vaguer concept and would allow underinsured items.

As you say, the RMSD wording pretty much describes the former situation.

All you're getting with RMSD is the security of tracking.

I wonder how many items are ever lost with RMSD?

[markrlondon]

I've only been on tz-uk for a few months so I presume this must have come up previously.

Yes, regularly (hence my exasperation). But people still aren't aware of it.

There is a general principle that you're not allowed to "under insure" an item, so if it exceeds the maximum insurable value, it isn't insured at all.
[...]
As you say, the RMSD wording pretty much describes the former situation.

Indeed but I don't think people expect this; I think it's counter-intuitive in most people's minds.

Certainly in my own case I used to assume that £2.5K cover on an item worth more than £2.5K would (obviously, I thought!) pay out a maximum of £2.5K if the item was lost, not nothing at all. Afterall, I had paid for £2.5K of cover so surely £2.5K's worth was what I would get. How wrong I was.

I wonder how many items are ever lost with RMSD?

It's certainly very rare but it does happen. And, if and when it does happen, to have no insurance at all when you were expecting to at least be insured to £2.5K must be a tad upsetting.

I feel that third party insurance must be well worth it for anything valued at over £2.5K (or £500 for international).


**edit**
Corrected spelling error.

[TKH]

Mark

I get what you are saying and not questionong your facts

But makes me wonder why Blowers use RMSD for all postage irrespective of value ?

And from conversation have never had a problem this way

[robcat]

I presume jewellers must have a separate, supplemental insurance policy which is dependant on them sending items by tracked delivery.

[markrlondon]

But makes me wonder why Blowers use RMSD for all postage irrespective of value ?

And from conversation have never had a problem this way

They will most likely have separate third party insurance(*). The third party insurer requires them to send by a tracked and known reliable method such as RMSD to reduce risk of loss but there is no reliance on or expectation of the RMSD insurance itself paying out.



(*) E.g. Parcelpro specialises in insuring for the jewellery trade. Other insurers will do block insurance: See, for example, thebuffoon's offer to set up a group insurance policy for TZ-UK at viewtopic.php?f=1&t=187047#p1891213 in one of the many previous threads on this subject.

[Bootsy]

You can arrange with ParcelPro to have RMSD set up on their system to take out seperate insurance. I always use it irrespective of value with RMSD and use DHL with parcelpro for any overseas deliveries.

[mylofitz]

With problems with the search function it would be handy if Eddie made this a sticky.

[chafer]

The likes of Blowers most definitely use a third party to insure their parcels. I don't think they would leave their reputation (& profit) in the clumsy hands of Royal Mail.

[learningtofly]

Mark - good post and you're absolutely right (and any watch exceeding those values sold by me will be covered by ParcelPro insurance at the requisite amount).

This should be a sticky!

[swatch]

The ONLY way to send a watch valued at more than £2500 with insurance using a domestic Royal Mail/Parcelforce service as the carrier is to purchase extra third party insurance from the likes of MBE or Parcelpro.

Has anyone ever made a claim using these third party services in combination with Royal Mail?

[learningtofly]

The ONLY way to send a watch valued at more than £2500 with insurance using a domestic Royal Mail/Parcelforce service as the carrier is to purchase extra third party insurance from the likes of MBE or Parcelpro.

Has anyone ever made a claim using these third party services in combination with Royal Mail?

No, but I've claimed from MBE when using DHL - I had a cheque in my hand for the full amount in just over a week.

[Steveb]

What is the cost of this third party insurance? Say for a £4k watch.

[lewie]

All you're getting with RMSD is the security of tracking.

Thats not really correct,the RMSD items are kept seperate form all other items of mail and are handled seperatly and kept secure.

[studs]

They will most likely have separate third party insurance...

No question that this is the case.

I phoned LVMH a year or two ago to ask if one of my Zeniths could be regulated while still under warranty... next day a small travel case complete with pre-paid RMSD packet landed on my doormat. At the post office for despatch I noticed the postage paid on the packet was just standard RMSD, so I there and then stepped out of the queue and phoned LVMH to ask if this was a mistake and whether I should pay extra to be better insured... No that's fine was the reply, and don't worry, it's all fully covered...

[PhiloStan]

Thanks for clearing it up, I would have misunderstood all this.

[puffy]

insure third party with Parcel Pro :) 8)

[PhiloStan]

Why can't for all watches with a true value of over 2500, someone just understates the value and says it is worth only 2500?

[seikopath]

Why can't for all watches with a true value of over 2500, someone just understates the value and says it is worth only 2500?

Because if someone has just paid 2750 they are going to be pissed

[xdonolix]

I always rmsd at £500 and parcelpro to the full amount, I don't like to declare the full value of the package. In fact parcelpro request is that you don't declare the full value, or label the shipment a watch or related item.

[learningtofly]

Why can't for all watches with a true value of over 2500, someone just understates the value and says it is worth only 2500?

You can't declare a value higher than that, anyway. The issue will arise when it comes to a claim - you'd have to ensure that RM didn't determine that the real value was actually higher (than their maximum of £2.5k).

Good luck if that ever happens.

(The post above this one describes the best solution and the correct methodology - according to ParcelPro's own guidance, in any event).

[SteveF]

Why can't for all watches with a true value of over 2500, someone just understates the value and says it is worth only 2500?

Because if someone has just paid 2750 they are going to be pissed

Dont forget guys....the loss will be the sellers and not the buyers...

[seikopath]

Why can't for all watches with a true value of over 2500, someone just understates the value and says it is worth only 2500?

Because if someone has just paid 2750 they are going to be pissed

Dont forget guys....the loss will be the sellers and not the buyers...

Only if the seller makes a refund :wink:

[SteveF]

Why can't for all watches with a true value of over 2500, someone just understates the value and says it is worth only 2500?

Because if someone has just paid 2750 they are going to be pissed

Dont forget guys....the loss will be the sellers and not the buyers...

Only if the seller makes a refund :wink:

Mmmm....point taken :wink:

[seikopath]

What would concern me more than outright loss of an RMSD package (which although not impossible I would think to be exceptionally rare) is possible damage eg to an automatic movement etc while in transit.. Establishing responsibilty would be a nightmare unless the seller automatically assumes all responsibility

[Mr Stoat]

Why can't for all watches with a true value of over 2500, someone just understates the value and says it is worth only 2500?

Because if someone has just paid 2750 they are going to be pissed

Dont forget guys....the loss will be the sellers and not the buyers...

Only if the seller makes a refund :wink:

That's an interesting point - surely the contract to purchase is between the buyer and the seller, the contract to deliver is between the seller and the Post Office. Therefore if the item is not provided to the buyer he has every right to seek redress from the the seller regardless of what what happens between the seller and the post office (unless the buyer agreed to take the liability during transit). In effect the ownership transfers from the seller to the buyer at the point of delivery to the buyer, not once the seller has popped it in the post.

I only say this as that's the exact point I'm using over a missing package that was coming to me - as far as I'm concerned I don't care what happens between the seller and the courier and whether they've insured it for postal loss or how long it will take the courier to compensate the seller, my contract is with the seller and I expect either a replacement item or a full refund in a reasonable timeframe.

Note this is a not a deal on TZ-UK I'm talking about.

[BDC]

An important point well made but for me a watch worth over £2500 would be a drive up to collect it or a request to meet somewhere.
That way I don't have to wait! :wink:

[Omegamanic]

So, have you had a payout our of £2500 refused? As I have indeed claimed £2500 for an item worth more and stated as worth more.

I've recently noticed a few watches worth more than £2.5K in SC where the vendor has stated that he will post by RMSD "insured up to £2500" (or words, explicit or implicit, to that effect).

E.g.
"offer the watch at £2,895 including UK RMSD insured to £2,500"
"£3300 incl RMSD"
"I am looking for £6000 for the watch, shipped RMSD (insured for £2.5k)"

NO!!!!!

Once and for all, RMSD does not work that way. An item that is sent by RMSD and which is worth more than the maximumn RMSD compensation level of £2500 is NOT INSURED AT ALL! Not even the first £2500-worth of its value is insured. If it is worth more than £2500 then all Royal Mail insurance on it is invalidated.

Note also that Parcelforce is no better: Valuable items such as watches are NOT INSURED AT ALL by any Parcelforce service (whether domestic or international).

I've not provided references in this post since, a) they can be found in several other TZ-UK threads, and b) they can be found on the Royal Mail and Parcelforce websites (if you look hard enough).

To summarise:
(1) There is no Parcelforce service (neither domestic nor international) that is safe for sending watches of any value. I.e. watches are not insurable by any Parcelforce service whatsoever. This is true whatever Post Office staff might tell you! Paying extra for enhanced Parcelforce insurance is worthless for watches (as well as for most other valuables, in fact).

(2) The only Royal Mail domestic service which will insure watches is RMSD and this only goes up to £2500 total value. Above that value all insurance is invalidated.

(3) The only Royal Mail international services which will insure watches are Airsure and International Signed For, and both of these only go to up a maximum of £500. As with RMSD, if you exceed that value then all insurance is invalidated.

(4) The ONLY way to send a watch valued at more than £2500 with insurance using a domestic Royal Mail/Parcelforce service as the carrier is to purchase extra third party insurance from the likes of MBE or Parcelpro.

(5) The ONLY way to send a watch valued at more than £500 with insurance using an international Royal Mail/Parcelforce service as the carrier is to purchase extra third party insurance from the likes of MBE or Parcelpro.

[744ER]

I dont think blowers et al insure many of their parcels, if any. Alot cheaper in the long run to just replace whatever gets lost than to pay an extra £20-£XXX for every parcel....

I've sent watches to everywhere from Bahamas to Vietnam to Russia and registered mail never got lost (and neither has regular post for lesser value items).

[learningtofly]

I dont think blowers et al insure many of their parcels, if any. Alot cheaper in the long run to just replace whatever gets lost than to pay an extra £20-£XXX for every parcel....

I've sent watches to everywhere from Bahamas to Vietnam to Russia and registered mail never got lost (and neither has regular post for lesser value items).

That certainly applies to MBE. I asked how they managed to get the cheque to me so quickly and was told they self-insure!

[SimonG156]

Talking to a European watch dealer, I found ups do insurance at 1% of the insured value which is pretty good.

[michael.jaye]

Why can't for all watches with a true value of over 2500, someone just understates the value and says it is worth only 2500?

Because if someone has just paid 2750 they are going to be pissed

Dont forget guys....the loss will be the sellers and not the buyers...

Not if the ad states (which mine do) delivery by RMSD at buyers risk.

I always offer to arrange insured courier and charge the cost but 9 times out of 10 people choose RMSD.

[Clockworx]

Thanks for the heads up Mark.

I must put my hand up and admit that I was in the school of thought that if a £3k watch was posted RMSD and it was lost, that you could claim £2.5k back. Obviously not!

Stickying this topic (possibly in SC too) would be really helpful!

[xdonolix]

Talking to a European watch dealer, I found ups do insurance at 1% of the insured value which is pretty good.

Parcelpro is way cheaper, and you dont need to write on the box the value / item description. I assume is you ship fully insured with ups you would need to write wristwatch and $5000 or whatever the value was.

Parcelpro rate card intra EU

[markrlondon]

As I have indeed claimed £2500 for an item worth more and stated as worth more.

Are you saying that Royal Mail paid out for the loss of an item worth more than £2500 sent via Special Delivery? How much did they actually pay out?

If they did pay out then it was in breach of their own Ts&Cs and you were very, very lucky indeed. No one else should rely on such good luck!

[flame]

Hi

Very interesting reading & something to certainly bear in mind.

For my latest deal in excess of £2.5k , I did ask the buyer to accept that RMSD was acceptable & if they accepted the risk....which they did. In the event of the loss of the Watch I would have paid them out £2.5k personally (and followed up a claim with RM).

For future deals in excess of £2.5k I'll be looking to use ParcelPro or ask the buyer to make the necessary shipping arrangements....which happened recently for a watch sold to a guy in Paris (who sent Fedex).

I have also heard from a fellow member that ParcelPro account holders can insure to send & receive Parcels aswell (as long as their T&C's are followed).

All the best - Neil

[Bootsy]

I have also heard from a fellow member that ParcelPro account holders can insure to send & receive Parcels aswell (as long as their T&C's are followed).

All the best - Neil

Yes, this is true. I insure anything I have coming in from overseas and anything of a higher value through RMSD

The Ts and Cs are important as are following their packaging instructions to the letter.

I sent a Heuer to Hong Kong last week and there was some confusion over the address when DHL went to deliver. ParcelPro themselves contacted me yesterday to make me aware and intervene to insure the watch arrived correctly - this has happened a couple of times. Their tracking/alert system seems very good.

[learningtofly]

I have also heard from a fellow member that ParcelPro account holders can insure to send & receive Parcels aswell (as long as their T&C's are followed).

All the best - Neil

Yes, this is true. I insure anything I have coming in from overseas and anything of a higher value through RMSD

The Ts and Cs are important as are following their packaging instructions to the letter.

I sent a Heuer to Hong Kong last week and there was some confusion over the address when DHL went to deliver. ParcelPro themselves contacted me yesterday to make me aware and intervene to insure the watch arrived correctly - this has happened a couple of times. Their tracking/alert system seems very good.

Can you clarify what you think they mean by "double boxed"? For example does it have to be one box inside another, and if so do they both have to have complete delivery information on them? Or (for example) would a box inside an RMSD envelope be sufficient, assuming that both were properly addressed?

[Bootsy]

I always follow this

Not sure if envelopes are ok to use - drop them a line, they usually respond quickly

[learningtofly]

Excellent - thank you (I didn't see that on the site, actually). Will ask the question regarding RMSD envelopes and update this thread with the answer.

[Gentlemanjim]

Excellent post Mark, covering an important point.

Can I suggest that as an addendum one should be aware that the risk in all transactions remains with the seller until the item is received by the buyer, in good condition, ie, as sent?

That is my understanding; if I`m wrong please let me know.

Jim

[Bootsy]

Excellent - thank you (I didn't see that on the site, actually). Will ask the question regarding RMSD envelopes and update this thread with the answer.

It's supplied (together with your certificate of insurance) when you open an account with them.

[learningtofly]

Excellent - thank you (I didn't see that on the site, actually). Will ask the question regarding RMSD envelopes and update this thread with the answer.

It's supplied (together with your certificate of insurance) when you open an account with them.

Ah - I'll look over the correspondence again :)

[Omegamanic]

As I have indeed claimed £2500 for an item worth more and stated as worth more.

Are you saying that Royal Mail paid out for the loss of an item worth more than £2500 sent via Special Delivery? How much did they actually pay out?

If they did pay out then it was in breach of their own Ts&Cs and you were very, very lucky indeed. No one else should rely on such good luck!

They paid £2500 and apologised that this was the max amount they could pay.

[markrlondon]

As I have indeed claimed £2500 for an item worth more and stated as worth more.

Are you saying that Royal Mail paid out for the loss of an item worth more than £2500 sent via Special Delivery? How much did they actually pay out?

If they did pay out then it was in breach of their own Ts&Cs and you were very, very lucky indeed. No one else should rely on such good luck!

They paid £2500 and apologised that this was the max amount they could pay.

Thanks.

[SteveF]

Why can't for all watches with a true value of over 2500, someone just understates the value and says it is worth only 2500?

Because if someone has just paid 2750 they are going to be pissed

Dont forget guys....the loss will be the sellers and not the buyers...

Not if the ad states (which mine do) delivery by RMSD at buyers risk.

I always offer to arrange insured courier and charge the cost but 9 times out of 10 people choose RMSD.

Then I for one would not be buying from you ..... :wink:

[SteveF]

Excellent post Mark, covering an important point.

Can I suggest that as an addendum one should be aware that the risk in all transactions remains with the seller until the item is received by the buyer, in good condition, ie, as sent?

That is my understanding; if I`m wrong please let me know.

Jim

With you on this Jim as are the vast majority of members I'd say.....

[learningtofly]

Following question just emailed to ParcelPro...

Royal Mail produces specific packaging for its "UKRM" special delivery services. It's made from a very robust plastic but is essentially a custom envelope that encloses the box and provides all necessary delivery and tracking data in addition to affording extra protection/security.

Assuming that the box itself was marked with the appropriate delivery details, can I assume that use of RM's specific outer packaging (as described) conforms with ParcelPro's double-boxing standards?

I'll post the response here when I get it.

[flame]

Excellent post Mark, covering an important point.

Can I suggest that as an addendum one should be aware that the risk in all transactions remains with the seller until the item is received by the buyer, in good condition, ie, as sent?

That is my understanding; if I`m wrong please let me know.

Jim

With you on this Jim as are the vast majority of members I'd say.....

Hi

Surely this is something that is/can be agreed as part of the sales process between buyer & seller....rather than any hard & fast rules ?

I'm always happy to discuss the best fit & any risks in delivery....no complaints so far !

Thanks Neil