RMSD and watches worth over £2.5K in SC

[markrlondon]

Ok, agreed - but that is why I said, if you paid x for an item and then you sent it by post. And not if you bought an item and the seller posted it to you.

Okie doke.

either way you would indeed have to prove your case.

Indeed.

Although I'm sure in some cases it wouldn't be too hard to prove the actual value of an item, even without a purchase price - at least for readily available items.

Absolutely. For items with a known market value, valuing them should not be too difficult.

For example if I was buying a great deal, say a speedie for £1750 when both parties new it was worth a lot more; for arguments same, lets say this speedie had a market value of £2500, what would u insure it for? (Sorry iPad is playing up again!)

If I actually paid £1750 then the insurable value for the purposes of RMSD is £1750. That is the only value which is compatible with the Ts&Cs, according to my understanding. To state the higher amount when sending the item by RMSD could even be fraudulent, as I understand it.

If, on the other hand, I was insuring it for loss under contents insurance or in its own right then I'd value it at its replacement value (or new for old value).

Different insurance purposes requires different values.

[PhilipK]

If I actually paid £1750 then the insurable value for the purposes of RMSD is £1750. That is the only value which is compatible with the Ts&Cs, according to my understanding. To state the higher amount when sending the item by RMSD could even be fraudulent, as I understand it.

Indeed. To quote from the actual Terms (http://www.royalmail.com/sites/default/files/RM_SpecialDelivery_SpecificTerms_Jul12_1.pdf):

6.1 If any item you have posted under this agreement is lost or damaged while it is with us, and you provide satisfactory proof that you posted it and we received it, we will pay you compensation for the item and its contents based on the actual loss you suffer.

So for a hypothetical example where £1,750 was paid on SC for a watch with a market value (e.g. if sold on eBay) of £2,500 - and such things do occasionally happen - the maximum insurance while in transit by RMSD would be the £1,750 paid. A claim of £2,500 would be fraudulent, because that was not the actual loss suffered, even though it would cost £2,500 on the open market to purchase an equivalent watch to the one lost.

[Omegamanic]

Ok - that is interesting, and again after some rest and a clearer head makes good sense. So the loss would be considered the initial outlay from the buyer, and the latest valuation put on the item - being the sale price (and hopefully a very recent purchase price if a watch on a forum for example). That seems right and fair, given that if you had just sold the watch and if it was lost you would receive the same amount back in compensation (provided the claim was successful) and therefore be able to return that amount to the buyer - ie in this example £1750. All parties would then be satisfactorily compensated to some extent, and no real loss other than time.

Good, I am happy with that. I just keep thinking about my collection and the purchase prices rather than the hypothetical market prices and replacement values (which is a huge difference), as I have to update my contents insurance on a regular basis and provide inventory and replacement values for all my watches.

[Omegamanic]

I've just had a look at the transit2insure website. It seems a lot easier to use than parcel pro and the prices are still reasonable. I just had a few questions for anyone who has used the service before as the terms and conditions seemed quite brief:

Are there any specific packaging requirements?

It says in the event of a claim to contact the carrier and initiate the claims process. Should the item be insured to the full £2500 of Royal Mail or just a nominal amount?

The package will have to be as secure as possible, you don't want any potential for an insurer not to pay. Not sure about transitinsure, but with ParcelPro you just send it with minimum insurance (or none if you could - but RMSD minimum is up to £500).

[learningtofly]

The package will have to be as secure as possible, you don't want any potential for an insurer not to pay. Not sure about transitinsure, but with ParcelPro you just send it with minimum insurance (or none if you could - but RMSD minimum is up to £500).

Worth noting that ParcelPro requires double-boxing; and that a RMSD envelope does NOT count as a box (I've asked then). Obviously, a watch that's sold with B&P will have it's own box, and that would certainly count as one; however, if you were to bubble wrap that and then place it in an envelope, technically it would be incorrectly packed.

In the case of loss it hardly matters for obvious reasons, but a claim in respect of damage would be prejudiced.

[Omegamanic]

Worth noting that ParcelPro requires double-boxing; and that a RMSD envelope does NOT count as a box (I've asked then). Obviously, a watch that's sold with B&P will have it's own box, and that would certainly count as one; however, if you were to bubble wrap that and then place it in an envelope, technically it would be incorrectly packed.

In the case of loss it hardly matters for obvious reasons, but a claim in respect of damage would be prejudiced.

Oops - sorry Tony, I had completely forgot, as I tend to only send watches in their original boxes and placed inside a cardboard and then wrapped in thick tape. Given the commotion on another thread I'll also be trying to use the RM's silver bags on top to give an even better security against tampering! Although sometimes the silver bags aren't big enough - must wrap smaller :)

[watchmad]

Probably by asking to see said receipt/valuation ;-)

Digger

ha ha :0) Obviously, in the event of the watch being worth more than £2500 another tactic would be envoked i.e. go see friendly independant who'd write a valuation to £2,499.99!

But they can't prove something is worth more can they?

[theoriginaldigger]

^^^ LOL

I suppose they would use "comparables" if they thought the valuation was suspicious.

Dig

[satosatomi]

It is true, I have checked with the Royalmail three times today, not only they will not pay out if the value of the item is greater than the declared value on the form, but the sender will be committing fraud. What I don't really understand the seller decides the value, he can sell it at any price he likes and if the buyer agrees, RM shouldn't have any part in it?

[PhilipK]

What I don't really understand the seller decides the value, he can sell it at any price he likes and if the buyer agrees, RM shouldn't have any part in it?

Have you read section 4.4 of Royal Mail's Terms for Special Delivery?

[Omegamanic]

Crazy to think you could a loose watch in one package and not be entitled to compensation of any amount - even though you have paid an amount in that is reinsured to cover up to £2500 for the postage of that package. But you could send two packages, one with the watch and then box and papers in another, and as long as the buyer and seller contract them as two separate purchase/sales and keep proof of these transactions - and of course, as long as both are under £2500 in value then all would be good with RMSD - just two payments are required.

However, using something like ParcelPro you arrange to send one package at say, RMSD's cheapest rate (insured up to a maximum of £500), and simultaneously agree the details and tracking numbers with ParcelPro and you are good to go - all covered up to whatever value you choose to use. RMSD's easy and fully tracked service and ParcelPro bolt on insurance.

[m4r10]

Crazy to think you could a loose watch in one package and not be entitled to compensation of any amount - even though you have paid an amount in that is reinsured to cover up to £2500 for the postage of that package. But you could send two packages, one with the watch and then box and papers in another, and as long as the buyer and seller contract them as two separate purchase/sales and keep proof of these transactions - and of course, as long as both are under £2500 in value then all would be good with RMSD - just two payments are required.

After reading a few posts on SC, I reached the same conclusion, if both seller and buyer agree, the watch could be posted even with the B&P together. After all, 2 watches of same age, could have a difference in price of hundreds (or thousands, depending of the watch value) due to its condition.

Does anybody knows on what are RM basing their valuation of watches and how fair are them in valuation the watches? Suppose a watch goes missing in the post while in transit to be repaired and there's no transaction invloving money so one can't prove the real value of the watch. How fair are RM in valuing the condition of the watch based on the sender description? As I see it, they can easily say the watch was overevaluated and not pay anything at all!

[theoriginaldigger]

I think that's an interesting point.

Watch seller: "This watch is worth £3,000. How would you suggest I send it?"
Post Office Staff: "I'd suggest RMSD which includes insurance upto £2,500."
Watch seller: "Ah, ok. So if the watch is lost, you'll pay me £2.500 of the value in compensation?"
Post Office Staff: "Yep."

In this situation, is the onus really on the watch seller to read the T&Cs when being told by a Post Office employee that the watch is insured up to £2,500? That can't be right...

I think that's what Lawyers call the "four corners rule", if a contract is in writing nothing outside the four corners (of the piece of paper the contract is written on) matters i.e. you can't verbally modify a written contract - unless someone knows better.

Digger

[PhilipK]

After reading a few posts on SC, I reached the same conclusion, if both seller and buyer agree, the watch could be posted even with the B&P together. After all, 2 watches of same age, could have a difference in price of hundreds (or thousands, depending of the watch value) due to its condition.

Absolutely. All it requires is for both the buyer and seller to agree (a) who will pay the amount over £2,500 that has been lost, and (b) that they are willing to collude in fraudulent activity.

[JamesN]

Ive just been looking at transit2insure and it says in the terms that you have to be a commercial dealer? Will they stil cover personal shipments?

[Omegamanic]

Ive just been looking at transit2insure and it says in the terms that you have to be a commercial dealer? Will they stil cover personal shipments?

Most will allow a definition for a watch collector.

[jukeboxs]

Most will allow a definition for a watch collector.

Although how would you define a "watch collector"? E.g. is there a minimum frequency of trade or minimum collection size (or value)? I only have 4 'good' watches, and I only buy/sell about one watch every 1-2 years. So, I would be surprised if I could be classed as a watch collector, but I would like to have the option to full insure any expensive watch that I am posting. I suppose this is something I should ask the insurance company themselves.

No intention to stir anything up here, just asking for my own interest.

[simonrah]

I don't know about Transit2insure but for ParcelPro, just about any member of this forum would fit the watch collector definition. This is something I checked before I registered with them.

[markrlondon]

Ive just been looking at transit2insure and it says in the terms that you have to be a commercial dealer? Will they stil cover personal shipments?

There has previously been some concern expressed about that. Best thing to do would be to ask them, I guess.

[markrlondon]

The absolute maximum Royal Mail compensation for Airsure is £500 which requires an extra fee; the standard compensation for Airsure is £50.

See http://www.royalmail.com/personal/in...livery/airsure which states:

• standard compensation cover of £50
• up to £500 of additional compensation cover available

(on the page banner)

and

What compensation is available?

Airsure® prices include standard compensation cover for loss or damage up to £50 or the item value whichever is less.

Extra compensation

If you’re sending valuable items, you can buy additional cover of up to £500 (some destinations £250) for an extra fee. The maximum compensation for cash and money sent via Airsure® is £100

(in the 'Getting started' section)

and

What if I want to send something worth more than £500?

You can still use Airsure® to send items worth over £500 but we don't offer compensation to cover the value of the items over this amount. You can take out additional private insurance to cover the full value of your goods.

(in the FAQs)


As for International Signed For, the same limits apply as for Airsure.

See http://www.royalmail.com/personal/in...al-signed-for:

Compensation

You can only claim compensation for loss or damage to the item you’ve sent. We don’t pay compensation for delays or for consequential loss.
•Maximum compensation
Maximum loss or damage compensation is £50, or the value of the item - whichever is less. You can also buy extra compensation for more valuable items.
•Extra compensation
You can buy extra compensation of up to £500 - although for some countries this is limited to £250. Compensation for cash is limited to £100.

(in the 'Getting started' section)

[tz-uk73]

There has previously been some concern expressed about that. Best thing to do would be to ask them, I guess.

I have asked them via email and got a prompt, friendly, and clear answer. They do NOT cover individuals, be they watch collectors / art collectors whatever. You have to be a commercial business to use them.

cheers

[markrlondon]

I have asked them via email and got a prompt, friendly, and clear answer. They do NOT cover individuals, be they watch collectors / art collectors whatever. You have to be a commercial business to use them.

cheers

Many thanks. I'll update the original post summary with that info in due course.

[MrBanks]

Hi Gents, just a quick question; if I send a watch with a value of £5.5k via RMSD using Transit2Insure, can I set the value of the RMSD as low as possible i.e. £500, to get the postage costs down?

[markrlondon]

Hi Gents, just a quick question; if I send a watch with a value of £5.5k via RMSD using Transit2Insure, can I set the value of the RMSD as low as possible i.e. £500, to get the postage costs down?

a) Probably, yes.
b) But to be really sure, check with T2I. They should be able to give you a definitive answer according to their policies.

[entity999]

A bit late to the thread I know but has anyone used Parcelhero?

Looks like a glorified courier service: collects from your door and will deliver UK and international with insurance upto £5k (a sliding scale for additional insurance with additional £75 on top of posting costs for insurance of £5k) and no need to be a business.

I specifically checked with them to ensure that watches were insurable, since clocks and jewellry are not, and had a prompt email response that watches were insurable. However in the event of loss or damage Parcelpro would require some evidence of value.

No affiliaition by the way but on paper looks like it could be a contender for those packages that are over the RMSD limit.

[markrlondon]

Many thanks for the contribution.

A bit late to the thread I know but has anyone used Parcelhero?
[...]
I specifically checked with them to ensure that watches were insurable, since clocks and jewellry are not, and had a prompt email response that watches were insurable. However in the event of loss or damage Parcelpro would require some evidence of value.

Sounds promising, although it is odd that clocks and jewellery are not included whereas watches are. Call me cynical but I'd want to see that in writing. ;-)

[MrBanks]

I used transit 2 insure and it was £31 to insure a watch to the value of £6000. Took about 5 minutes to complete the form and I was very pleased with the service. Also, you don't have to pay for RMSD insurance, I checked with T2I and they confirmed.

[markrlondon]

N.B. Note added on 18/12/2013: The situation for RMSD is as it always was (as per the original message in this thread). The current (April 2013) RMSD Ts&Cs remove any ambiguity for RMSD. An apparent ambiguity for Airsure and International Signed For still exists and I will address it in future. See http://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.ph...=1#post2970558 for details. Please bear this in mind when reading the rest of this message.

---

A comment by Sharky in another thread (http://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.ph...=1#post2644111) caused me to check out the latest RM Ts&Cs and how they relate to compensation. I wanted to confirm whether or not what I have said previously in this thread was still correct. Intriguingly, however, it now looks to me as if RM will pay out a maximum of £2500 for RMSD (or £500 for Airsure or International Signed For) for lost or damaged items even when the item is worth more than £2500 for RMSD (or more than £500 for Airsure/ISF). In other words, it now looks as if RM's compensation/insurance is not totally invalidated when the value of the item exceeds those maximum values! Yes, this is contrary to all the previous information.

Below are the reference sources from which I have drawn these conclusions. Please do read the documents and make up your own mind. I have not yet updated the initial messages in this thread with this corrected information but I will do so in due course. If you have any comments, confirmations/rebuttals, or alternative interpretations, please do say so here. What have I missed?

References:-

1) Royal Mail's 'General Terms and Conditions' dated 14th January 2013 available at http://www.royalmail.com/sites/defau...ns_Jan13_1.pdf. These state:

1. Introduction
[...]
1.9 For any products the Scheme applies to, if the terms of the Scheme contradict the terms set out in these general terms, the terms of the Scheme will apply.

2. Definitions
[...]
Scheme The Successor Postal Services Company Inland Letter Post, Inland Parcel Post, Overseas Letter Post, Overseas Parcel Post, or Franking Letters and Parcels Scheme, or any other scheme made under Section 89 of the Postal Services Act 2000, as amended by the Postal Services Act 2011. You can view the schemes at www.royalmail.com/scheme .

7. Our responsibility to you and your responsibility to us
[...]
7.1 Other than for products to which the Scheme applies, as listed in Appendix 1 (and which are subject to the terms of the Scheme), we will have no liability to you at all other than as expressly set out in this clause 7.

Appendix A
1. Table of products
[...]
The Scheme applies to the following products*
[...]
1st Class
2nd Class
Recorded Signed For
Special Delivery^TM
International Letters
International Airsure®
International Signed For
Interntional Printed Papers
International Small Packets

(bold added by me)

N.B. Section 7.1 above refers to "Appendix 1" whereas it should refer to section 1 of Appendix A. There is no Appendix 1 in this document. This is a typographical error in the source document.

2) 'The Royal Mail United Kingdom Post Scheme 1st January 2013' available at http://www.royalmail.com/sites/defau...an2013_0_0.pdf. This states:

2. What this Scheme applies to
[...]
2.1.1 [...]The terms and conditions for the specific services listed below are contained within this Scheme:
• First Class (with and without Recorded Signed For^TM added),
• Second Class (with and without Recorded Signed For^TM added),
• Standard Parcels,
• Special Delivery^TM Next Day ('Special Delivery'),
• Articles for the Blind,
• Petitions and Addresses to the Sovereign and
• Petitions to Parliament & Assemblies.

16. Compensation - what we are liable for
[...]
16.7.1 Compensation is available for items sent using the following services:
• First Class (with and without Recorded Signed For^TM added),
• Second Class (without without Recorded Signed For^TM added),
• Special Delivery^TM,
• Standard Parcels and
• Articles for the Blind
16.7.2 In addition to the information contained in this Scheme we publish a policy for each type of compensation which can be found through te following links. These policies may be updated from time to time and the latest versions will always be published on our website (www.royalmail.com).
Royal Mail's retail compensation policy for loss [http://www.royalmail.com/personal/he...licy-for-loss]
Royal Mail's retail compensation policy for damage [http://www.royalmail.com/personal/he...cy-for-damage]
Royal Mail's retail compensation policy for delay [http://www.royalmail.com/personal/he...delayed-items]
[...]
16.7.5 As mentioned in section 16.7.4 above in order to claim loss or damage compensation for the actual loss of the item additional evidence is required.

Please note that, when claiming for actual loss, there is a cap on the amount of compensation that can be paid. For Special Delivery^TM it is the lower of market value or £500 (or £1,000 or £2,500 if enhanced compensation has been purchased). For all other services listed in section 16.7.1 it is the lower of market value or £46.

(bold added by me)

I can find nowhere that states that items valued at greater than the "cap on the amount of compensation that can be paid" have all RM insurance invalidated, as was previously believed. It really does seem, according to these documents, that RM will now pay out up to a value of £500 (or £1000 or £2500) for loss of or damage to items worth more than those amounts when sent by RMSD. I am sure that documents I read previously stated otherwise (hence this entire thread!).

See also note 1 below.

3) 'The Royal Mail Overseas Letter Post Scheme February 2013' available at http://www.royalmail.com/sites/defau...ary%202013.pdf. This states:

2. What This Scheme Applies To
2.1 This Scheme set out the terms and conditions for:
[...]The terms and conditions for the specific services listed below are contained within this Scheme:
• Airmail (with and without International Signed For^TM or Airsure® added)
• Surface Mail (with and without International Signed For^TM added)
• H M Forces Mail (with and without Special delivery^TM or Recorded Signed For^TM)
• Articles for the Blind

16 Compensation - What We Are Liable For
[...]
16.7 Compensation is available for items sent using the following services:
• Airmail (with and without International Signed For^TM or Airsure® added);
• Surface Mail (with and without International Signed For^TM added);
• HM Forces Mail (without and without Special Delivery^TM or Recorded Signed For^TM added);
• Articles for the Blind (with International Signed For^TM or Airsure® added).
[...]
16.10 In order to claim loss or damage compensation for the actual loss of the item additional evidence of the item's value is required. Please note that, when claiming for actual loss, there is a cap on the amount of compensation that can be paid. For International Signed For^TM and Airsure® it is the lower of market value or £50 (or £250 or £500 if enhanced compensation has been purchased. Enhanced compensations is limited to £250 for some destinations and is not available for mobile telephones (including Blackberrys and PDAs)). The maximum compensation available for loss or damage to cash, securities or instruments to the bearer is £100. There are restrictions to sending cash and other items to some destinations. Please see our website (www.royalmail.com) for further information on restrictions and prohibitions. For all other services listed in section 16.7 is is the lower or market value or £46.

(bold added by me)

As with the domestic Scheme, I can find nowhere that states that items valued at greater than the "cap on the amount of compensation that can be paid" have all RM insurance invalidated, as was previously believed. Thus, as with RMSD, it really does seem, according to these documents, that RM will now pay out up to a value of £50 (or £250 or £500, depending on destination and compensation purchased) for loss of or damage to items worth more than those amounts when sent by Airsure or International Signed For. As with RMSD, I am sure that documents I read previously stated otherwise.

See also note 2 below.

4) I have checked the policies listed in the domestic Scheme above and these do not seem to contradict anything in the Schemes. The referenced policies are as follows:
'CS - HSP004 - Royal Mail’s retail compensation policy for loss - 4th DC': http://www.royalmail.com/personal/he...olicy-for-loss
'CS - HSP005 - Available compensation for damaged and part loss items - 4th DC': http://www.royalmail.com/personal/he...art-loss-items
'CS -HSP006 -Royal Mail's retail compensation policy for damage - 4th DC': http://www.royalmail.com/personal/he...icy-for-damage
'CS - HSP008 -Royal Mail's retail compensation policy for delay- 4th DC': http://www.royalmail.com/personal/he...licy-for-delay




Notes:-
Notes are in the next message


Edits:-
1) 1st March 2013 at 01:42: Fixed typos.
2) 22nd March 2013 at 16:03: Added some bold where it was previously missing; fixed typos.
3) 22nd March 2013 at 16:18: Added note about typographical error in Royal Mail's 'General Terms and Conditions' dated 14th January 2013.
4) 18th December 2013 at 19:23: Fixed typos.
5) 18th December 2013 at 19:26: Updated with important information about RMSD.
6) 18th December 2013 at 19:39: Fixed typos.

[markrlondon]

Notes to previous message:

1: Note that 'The Royal Mail United Kingdon Post Scheme 1st January 2013' scheme also confirms in section 5.7.12 that "Valuables can only be sent using the Special Delivery^TM service." and goes on to confirm in Annex A what comprises "Valuables". This includes "watches the cases of which are made wholly or mainly of precious metal" and "articles similar to [the above] with an intrinsuc value". Furthermore, "intrinsic value" is defined as "it has an inherent monetary value relating to its essential nature". Between them I think these two definitions include all watches, regardless of what they are made of.

2: Note that 'The Royal Mail Overseas Letter Post Scheme February 2013' scheme also confirms in section 5.20 that "Valuables can only be sent using International Signed For^TM or Airsure®." The definition of "Valuables" is given in Annex A and is the same as the domestic Scheme's definition described in note 1 above.



Edits:-
22nd March 2013 at 1608: Fixed typos.

[markrlondon]

I used transit 2 insure and it was £31 to insure a watch to the value of £6000. Took about 5 minutes to complete the form and I was very pleased with the service. Also, you don't have to pay for RMSD insurance, I checked with T2I and they confirmed.

Thanks for the update.

[TAG0001]

Mark
Thanks for your ongoing work on this thread and a bump for awareness.
I would have been wrong in all my assumptions without your efforts.
R

[mwurliinkomeg]

Thanks guys for a most interesting and thought provoking thread.
Do T2I charge insurance on a sliding scale?
No don't answer that - I'm just being lazy as I can look up the details myself.
But I may need to pay for insurance of an incoming watch within the next few days so any advice would be helpful. Value, or should I say price paid, will be between £3000 and £4200

[cornish]

Mark
Thanks for your ongoing work on this thread and a bump for awareness.
I would have been wrong in all my assumptions without your efforts.
R

that's the trouble! most of us would blindly assume that if we insure with RMSD that it will be insured. the simple fact of the matter is most normal people just pay for what they think they are getting regarding the insurance. and when something goes pearshaped, they soon find out that the insurance isn't really worth the paper it's written on.

i think perhaps there should be a class action lawsuit against RM for their mis-selling of postal insurance. god knows, they make enough money delivering unsolicited leaflets through our letterboxes everyday, giving the council recycling time a job in the process.

the banks are coughing up over ppi, bout time RM coughed up or made it crystal clear if the £4k watch you are posting isn't really covered at all when you buy the insurance with the postage. the onus should be on the RM staff to tell you this. rather than accepting the money and stiffing you later when it goes wrong.

[markrlondon]

that's the trouble! most of us would blindly assume that if we insure with RMSD that it will be insured. the simple fact of the matter is most normal people just pay for what they think they are getting regarding the insurance. and when something goes pearshaped, they soon find out that the insurance isn't really worth the paper it's written on.

i think perhaps there should be a class action lawsuit against RM for their mis-selling of postal insurance. god knows, they make enough money delivering unsolicited leaflets through our letterboxes everyday, giving the council recycling time a job in the process.

the banks are coughing up over ppi, bout time RM coughed up or made it crystal clear if the £4k watch you are posting isn't really covered at all when you buy the insurance with the postage. the onus should be on the RM staff to tell you this. rather than accepting the money and stiffing you later when it goes wrong.

Well, if my understanding of the new regulations dated January and February of this year is correct (http://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.ph...=1#post2645037) then at least RM's compensation does now work more along the lines that most people would expect. However, I caution everyone to not rely on this interpretation. It is possible there are other policy or practice documents which I have not yet found which still constrain RM's compensation to work as it previously did. I haven't got round to it yet but I intend to write to RM to obtain a written confirmation of their current practices in this context. [Added on 18/12/2013: It is now clear that compensation for RMSD works exactly as per the original message in this thread. See http://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.ph...=1#post2970558 for details.]

As I understand it, it is difficult to sue RM on the basis of unreasonable contracts or any other civil issue because many of their working procedures are backed by legislation. They do it their way because the law says they can.

I should add that statutory/legislative meddling in RM doesn't exactly help it either, as I understand it: In previous years it prevented RM from borrowing money as any other commercial venture could to modernise and update, and now it works against RM by enforcing a universal service requirement on RM that its competitors do not have to labour under and forces RM to deliver competitors' letters at below cost price. If there is to be competition then let it be on a genuinely level playing field.


Edits:-
1) 18th December 2013 at 15:11: Fixed typo.
2) 18th December 2013 at 19:39: Updated with correction about RMSD.

[cornish]

Well, if my understanding of the new regulations dated January and Feburary of this year is correct (http://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.ph...=1#post2645037) then at least RM's compensation does now work more along the lines that most people would expect. However, I caution everyone to not rely on this interpretation. It is possible there are other policy or practice documents which I have not yet found which still constrain RM's compensation to work as it previously did. I haven't got round to it yet but I intend to write to RM to obtain a written confirmation of their current practices in this context.

As I understand it, it is difficult to sue RM on the basis of unreasonable contracts or any other civil issue because many of their working procedures are backed by legislation. They do it their way because the law says they can.

I should add that statutory/legislative meddling in RM doesn't exactly help it either, as I understand it: In previous years it prevented RM from borrowing money as any other commercial venture could to modernise and update, and now it works against RM by enforcing a universal service requirement on RM that its competitors do have to labour under and forces RM to delivere competitors' letters at below cost price. If there is to be competition then let it be on a genuinely level playing field.

in the meantime, until there is a black and white line specifying exactly what is covered and for how much, then it is probably a far safer option to agree a deal on sc, then make it into a day out a chinwag and an exchange of watch and cash.

don't any of the courier services do insured deliveries? like city link etc? maybe the likes of securicor are missing out on a niche market. perhaps even g4s could get right delivering a high end watch without losing it in their system. a postage fee with included insurance from any of the so-called specialist security services. they deliver millions of pounds each day to the banks up and down the country.

rules need changing for sure, if they accept to deliver something of value, they should honour the client compensation if it goes wrong whilst in their custody.

[kultschar]

I notice on the Royal Mail Special Delivery website it states compensation up to £2,500 etc as stated here but also you can buy consequential loss up to 10K

????

[markrlondon]

I notice on the Royal Mail Special Delivery website it states compensation up to £2,500 etc as stated here but also you can buy consequential loss up to 10K

????

Yes, that has always been the case. Consequential loss insurance is intended for items which are in themselves not particularly valuable (e.g. a contract) but whose loss or delay could nevertheless cause expensive (consequential) losses. Thus it is not applicable for insuring items which are valuable in their own right.

[cornish]

Yes, that has always been the case. Consequential loss insurance is intended for items which are in themselves not particularly valuable (e.g. a contract) but whose loss or delay could nevertheless cause expensive (consequential) losses. Thus it is not applicable for insuring items which are valuable in their own right.

yeah i'm sure with all the whiplash claims going around for car accidents, the lawyers are making a mint on that too, with their claims for delayed postal delivery etc. no wonder the postie is delivering so much junk through my door nowadays, it must obviously cover these consequential loss claims!

[occamsrazor]

Hi, sorry for the newbie question but it didn't seem worth opening a new thread. I did read a fair bit of this thread, but just wanted to double-check that for sending a watch valued around 500 GBP within the UK, that there are no issues and RMSD is the preferred method and will be fully insured. Thanks in advance..

[Omegamanic]

Hi, sorry for the newbie question but it didn't seem worth opening a new thread. I did read a fair bit of this thread, but just wanted to double-check that for sending a watch valued around 500 GBP within the UK, that there are no issues and RMSD is the preferred method and will be fully insured. Thanks in advance..

That is correct - although they won't send to your long lost aunt in Kenya for you - you'd have to use something like Airsure, or another more appropriate international service for that.

[occamsrazor]

That is correct - although they won't send to your long lost aunt in Kenya for you - you'd have to use something like Airsure, or another more appropriate international service for that.

Thanks for the confirmation. I never send high-value items to Kenya unless I really have to and then only DHL. This would be for UK-to-UK posting.

[markrlondon]

Just a link to a post I wrote about the current situation with batteries and Royal Mail, both domestically and internationally: http://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.ph...and-Royal-Mail

[shoppy]

If its high value, I have normally driven or flown down to meet people or I drop off in person. But if I was really busy I would use a same day courier, my family use them in there day to day business and are really good.

[markrlondon]

But if I was really busy I would use a same day courier, my family use them in there day to day business and are really good.

Can you recommend any? I note that RM actually offer a same day courier service but I've never looked into trying it out.

[~dadam02~]

I've been using transit2insure to insure my packages over the last year but only just noticed the small print in the T&C's which reference the requirement to be an active commercial dealer.....effectively it looks like i've been sending goods with insurance that looks like it would have been void in the event of a claim.

1. In order to be eligible for this Insurance, you warrant that you are an active commercial Dealer in Antiques, Objets d’Art, Objets de Vertu or Fine Art, or a Restorer, Carrier or Auctioneer in these fields. If in doubt as to your eligibility, you should contact John Wakefield on 0(44)870-241-0-142.
2. You warrant that the goods insured in transit are Antiques, Objets d’Art, Objets de Vertu

Anyone else using this service currently who is also not a commercial dealer?

Looking at other options, i'm currently discussing a deal with another board member and we are stuck on the insurance part, specifically trying to set up a Parcelpro account but not getting any response from PP. Anyone able to share any tips and hints as to how to get this set up quickly?

Failing that, are there any other services people are using to send above £2.5k within the UK?

[markrlondon]

Another alternative insured delivery provider: http://www.pharosparcel.com. I haven't checked their terms and conditions; please check their full conditions and use at your own risk.

Thank you to europa for mentioning them in another thread. Copied here with his permission.

I use http://www.pharosparcel.com/
They use UPS, you select the service (standard, express etc) and you specify the insurance value - easy to use, just print off the lable they give you, sellotape to the parcel, and a UPS guy will come n pick it up. No customs paperwork required for EU either.

**edit**
08/08/2013 1950: Thanks to ssahyeong and Chris W (see posts below) who point out that they limit watches carried to a value of $500. Oh well. :-(

[ssahyeong]

Another alternative insured delivery provider: http://www.pharosparcel.com. I haven't checked their terms and conditions; please check their full conditions and use at your own risk.

Looks like they have a limit of $500. From their Ts&Cs:

"Exceptional Value" means any item valued over USD 500.

Packages must not contain any of the following prohibited articles including (but not limited to):
- Articles of Exceptional Value (e.g. art, antiques, precious stones, stamps, unique items, gold or silver).
- Jewellery and watches (other than costume jewelry and costume watches) exceeding USD 500 or local currency equivalent per package.

[Chris W]

Just checked T&C and it states:

Value
The value of any package may not exceed the local currency equivalent of USD 50,000. In addition the value of any jewellery or watches other than costume jewellery or costume watches in a package shall not exceed the local currency equivalent of USD 500.

[markrlondon]

Thanks to ssahyeong and Chris W. I'll edit the post above.

[markrlondon]

Useful thread on setting up a Parcel Pro account: http://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.ph...-to-Parcel-Pro