PP 5711 vs AP 15202

[Kris77]

The AP bracelet is attached with screws and the PP uses springbars.

[Wazza]

I would choose the PP by a whisker. The classic design of the AP has been a little over exposed in their other incarnations.

[Stensbjerg]

Maybe it is just me
I can in some way see the point if they as AP use screws (looks good)
but pin holes with springsbars in this price range is a no go for me.

And I have no fear with the fact that springs bars hold on to (for me) my expensive JLC bracelet
but as I said a small thing in two very nice warches :)

Wear them in good health 8)

[TheDude]

The lug holes are because they use two screws to attach the bracelet to the case, it's also integrated to make it more secure. I feel that at this price, i'd be a bit miffed to find my bracelet attached by two springbars that you find on a 5 quid watch as well.

Also, not many are JLC based anymore, a few of the older ones did use the JLC 889, modified to suit. This has now been replaced in almost all of them by the AP 3120, which is a fully in-house movement.

The reason AP used so many JLC movement was quite simple, they owned 40% of JLC, and used JLC to design and manufacture the movements for the low to mid range watches in their range, they then used Renaud et Papi (owned by AP) for the high end complications, and also allowed others to use them, such as Richard Mille, Harry Winston and other high end makers.

Since selling their 40% share in JLC, they have slowly phased out all JLC movements, bar the 2121 and the 2120 used as a base on others, that is because they own these movements in full, the design, the tooling, the manufacture process, etc.

Personally, i think it's quite interesting to think that back in the 70s, companies like AP, Patek and JLC were so intertwined, remember that patek have also been known to use outsourced movements, although again, i believe they owned the designs for these, or do now?, it appears like it was quite a closeknit community, just look at the two watches in the original post, both designed by Genta, both very similar.

Interesting, thanks. I think it speaks volumes for the quality of JLC movements that the top tier watch houses were/are happy to use their movements, and I believe they supplied PP as recently as the 1980s. I'm a big admirer of JLC, and I think the movement in my RDM appears in a considerably more expensive VC. Perhaps I'm being too much of a purist?

[Argee1977]

JLC are pretty much the best movement manufacturers for me out of the big ones, they've supplied countless others with their movements, and i would hazard a guess that since moving into Richemont, they've been influential with the other brands in the stable, just look at Panerai and all their in-house movements, as well as the others.

[Stensbjerg]

100% agree to me there is no one like JLC in the watch world today 8

[Kris77]

Interesting, thanks. I think it speaks volumes for the quality of JLC movements that the top tier watch houses were/are happy to use their movements, and I believe they supplied PP as recently as the 1980s. I'm a big admirer of JLC, and I think the movement in my RDM appears in a considerably more expensive VC. Perhaps I'm being too much of a purist?

A true purist should own at least one watch with the 2120 movement. :wink:

[TheDude]

Maybe I should look for a VC 222. ;-)

[Kris77]

Maybe I should look for a VC 222. ;-)

Another great Genta design. Good choice. :)

[Burak]

Great thread Kris, two of my all time favourites and it's really difficult to choose one ahead of the other. Both of these are true icons and along with the VC 222 represent the greatest of Gerald Genta's genius.

If money were no object then the Nautilus would definitely be No 1 for me, it just oozes understated class and has always been a grail. Resale values are rock solid also, which is nice when you're going to part with £15.5k!

However, in the real world the 15202 ( and it has to be a 15202 not a 15300!) comes mighty close to the Patek and due to residuals is much more easily attainable on the second-hand market. Having tried on both of these I also really love the way the AP wears on the wrist, it feels much bigger than 39mm and the bracelet is a work of art. So whilst the Patek will perhaps be an unobtainable grail, I hope someday to have the pleasure of a 15202 in the collection.

Thanks for sharing these two wonderful pieces.

Michael.

[Argee1977]

Maybe I should look for a VC 222. ;-)

Another great Genta design. Good choice. :)

It was actually Jorg Hysek who designed the VC 222, Genta did the AP RO, PP Nautilus and the IWC Ingenieur

[Kris77]

Maybe I should look for a VC 222. ;-)

Another great Genta design. Good choice. :)

It was actually Jorg Hysek who designed the VC 222, Genta did the AP RO, PP Nautilus and the IWC Ingenieur

:lol: definitely inspired by Genta's design.

[Kris77]

Great thread Kris, two of my all time favourites and it's really difficult to choose one ahead of the other. Both of these are true icons and along with the VC 222 represent the greatest of Gerald Genta's genius.

If money were no object then the Nautilus would definitely be No 1 for me, it just oozes understated class and has always been a grail. Resale values are rock solid also, which is nice when you're going to part with £15.5k!

However, in the real world the 15202 ( and it has to be a 15202 not a 15300!) comes mighty close to the Patek and due to residuals is much more easily attainable on the second-hand market. Having tried on both of these I also really love the way the AP wears on the wrist, it feels much bigger than 39mm and the bracelet is a work of art. So whilst the Patek will perhaps be an unobtainable grail, I hope someday to have the pleasure of a 15202 in the collection.

Thanks for sharing these two wonderful pieces.

Michael.

I'm glad you enjoyed it, Michael. Thanks for the kind comments.

[Argee1977]

Maybe I should look for a VC 222. ;-)

Another great Genta design. Good choice. :)

It was actually Jorg Hysek who designed the VC 222, Genta did the AP RO, PP Nautilus and the IWC Ingenieur

:lol: definitely inspired by Genta's design.

Yeah, it's quite possibly the biggest story that grew arms and legs, it's all quite funny the way things were done back then, Genta wasn't actually allowed to publicise that he designed the Nautilus, PP wanted to make it out that it was in-house design, god knows why, it had the look, same with the Ingy, and the 222 just looked like the RO with a different bezel, so caused confusion.

[Kris77]

Apparently it's unclear who designed the VC 222:
http://www.thehourlounge.com/thread/vie ... 35848.html

It does indeed look like a Genta design though.

[anton863]

How did I miss this thread!

Two absolute grails, gorgeous

[eyeristi]

gorgeous watches! nice comparo

[MORRI]

Patek for me, I always thought the bezel on the AP looked undecided- is it octagonal or round? In any case I also dislike hobnail dials. I can see that both are great original designs, but to each his own.....