Watch stops with clockwise pressure on crown when full wound

[markrlondon]

I've got a late 1970s manual wind Sekonda with a Vostok movement. It was worn for a bit in the late 70s (by me) and then put away. I recently got it out again.

I wound it up, set the time and left it on a table. It worked fine for about 18 hours and was only a couple of minutes fast. Not too bad. Then I picked it up to clean the case and turned it over a couple of times in my hand and it stopped. Shaking it didn't get it going again so I would it up to full wind (it had not fully discharged). The watch then started again but I now notice that if I put gentle clockwise pressure on the crown the watch stops and it needs a shake to get it going.

So in summary: a) It stopped when it was moved when it was about half discharged, and b) it stops when it's fully wound when clockwise pressure is put on the crown.

Can anyone suggest the problem here? I am guessing that the movement needs a clean and re-oil but anything more knowledgeable would be helpful.

Also the movement is loose in the horizontal plane. I assumed that a plastic movement spacer had deteriorated over the years but when I opened it up I found a metal movement spacer. It's just that for reasons I can't quite figure out, it no longer seems to hold the movement in tightly. Very weird. I don't think this relates to the stopping issue above since there doesn't seem to be any back and forth movement, only side to side.

[markrlondon]

Additional: I just started to set the time on it again (still fully wound) and the second hand stops when I turn the hands to set the time, but only when I turn the hands backwards (i.e. anti-clockwise). Turning them clockwise does not start it again. However, it gets going again with a shake.

The above sounds a bit like so-called 'manual hacking' but it's not. Even more oddly, the second hand will sometimes move forward a little as I turned the other hands, as if the movement frees a blockage somewhere.

I'd be really grateful if anyone has any ideas about this? I know it's difficult to diagnose without seeing it but I suspect this is a common fault mode that someone will recognise.

[horrovac]

Additional: I just started to set the time on it again (still fully wound) and the second hand stops when I turn the hands to set the time, but only when I turn the hands backwards (i.e. anti-clockwise). Turning them clockwise does not start it again. However, it gets going again with a shake.

The above sounds a bit like so-called 'manual hacking' but it's not. Even more oddly, the second hand will sometimes move forward a little as I turned the other hands, as if the movement frees a blockage somewhere.

I'd be really grateful if anyone has any ideas about this? I know it's difficult to diagnose without seeing it but I suspect this is a common fault mode that someone will recognise.

Sorry, that does not seem common to me at all. The only thing I can think of now is the escapement oil turning into thick sticky gunk with more breaking than lubricating properties. Putting more power on the escapement wheel would result in more pressure on the locking face of the pallet jewel and thus more friction, explaining the stopping. Theoretically. Very theoretically. Wild stab in the dark.

Seeing you have opened it: have you had a look at the escapement parts? Anything funny on there - like dirt, grease, or god forbid corrosion? Pallet jewel faces would be particularly interesting - are they clean and shiny or do they look dirty? Impulse jewel could be interesting too, but you probably won't be able to see that one without taking stuff apart.

About the movement being loose - is this with the closed watch, or after you opened it? Without the case back this would be normal, lots of movements are held in place by the case back.

Anyway, cleaning and relubricating sounds like a very good idea. I would not recommend to forcibly start it again by shaking, if it does not want to run, let it be until you know what the problem is.

[markrlondon]

Thanks for the response.

Seeing you have opened it: have you had a look at the escapement parts? Anything funny on there - like dirt, grease, or god forbid corrosion? Pallet jewel faces would be particularly interesting - are they clean and shiny or do they look dirty? Impulse jewel could be interesting too, but you probably won't be able to see that one without taking stuff apart.

There is nothing bad visible, all looks fine. It's a tad frustrating.

About the movement being loose - is this with the closed watch, or after you opened it? Without the case back this would be normal, lots of movements are held in place by the case back.

With the watch closed. When the crown is pressed in its normal position it locks the movement in place but when the crown is pulled out to set the time then the movement can be moved around in the plane of the watch. As I recall, it wasn't like this when i last wore it 30+ years ago. I can only presume that the metal movement holder has warped over the years.

Anyway, cleaning and relubricating sounds like a very good idea.

Yup, realistically I feel it has got to be a dirt/grease issue after laying idle for 30+ years.

I would not recommend to forcibly start it again by shaking, if it does not want to run, let it be until you know what the problem is.

Good point but when I say "shake" it is really the slightest wobble. It suggests to me a grease/stickiness or perhaps a hair or dust issue.

[horrovac]

Thanks for the response.

Seeing you have opened it: have you had a look at the escapement parts? Anything funny on there - like dirt, grease, or god forbid corrosion? Pallet jewel faces would be particularly interesting - are they clean and shiny or do they look dirty? Impulse jewel could be interesting too, but you probably won't be able to see that one without taking stuff apart.

There is nothing bad visible, all looks fine. It's a tad frustrating.

Well thanks a lot, I thought i'd look into my Komandirskie (with possibly the same calibre, 2412A) and found it to be dry, and dirty :), so I took it apart yesterday for cleaning. Mine looks pretty bad, visibly dirty, a bit of rust on the regulator that I'll need to take care of, pallets look a bit out of line - but it still works considerably well. I did not see anything that could explain your issues (as expected).

About the movement being loose - is this with the closed watch, or after you opened it? Without the case back this would be normal, lots of movements are held in place by the case back.

With the watch closed. When the crown is pressed in its normal position it locks the movement in place but when the crown is pulled out to set the time then the movement can be moved around in the plane of the watch. As I recall, it wasn't like this when i last wore it 30+ years ago. I can only presume that the metal movement holder has warped over the years.

I don't know - I'd be very surprised if metal would warp like that. If it is anything like my Komandirskie it will have a movement ring screwed on to the movement and held in place by the gasket which extends from the case over the movement ring and doubles as a compression retainer ring. Even if the ring were to warp, it would not allow the movement to wobble. Possibly the screws holding the movement ring are loose, or the gasket or something else inside the case has shrunk with age.

I would not recommend to forcibly start it again by shaking, if it does not want to run, let it be until you know what the problem is.

Good point but when I say "shake" it is really the slightest wobble. It suggests to me a grease/stickiness or perhaps a hair or dust issue.

Yes, I was not assuming that you were hitting it with a hammer :) Such a movement should start all by itself when the smallest amount of power is applied, so doing anything to make it start is forcible, even if quite gentle. The shaking is not the problem here, it should take violent shaking without problems - my concern is having it running when there is obviously some friction inside, possibly grinding the components away. They can take quite a lot of that as well, but it's better to leave it alone until everything is clean and slippery and lovely again :)

[markrlondon]

Well thanks a lot, I thought i'd look into my Komandirskie (with possibly the same calibre, 2412A)

I'm not sure what movement this has. It's definitely a Vostok movement because Vostok's logo (a Cyrillic "B"-like character in a circle) appears under the balance wheel. There's a number there too, "32198", but I don't know what this indicates. I can't see any other identifying marks.

and found it to be dry, and dirty :), so I took it apart yesterday for cleaning. Mine looks pretty bad, visibly dirty, a bit of rust on the regulator that I'll need to take care of, pallets look a bit out of line - but it still works considerably well. I did not see anything that could explain your issues (as expected).

Clearly your horological skills are considerably greater than mine. I could take a movement apart but I'd have a difficult time getting it back together. ;-)

With the watch closed. When the crown is pressed in its normal position it locks the movement in place but when the crown is pulled out to set the time then the movement can be moved around in the plane of the watch. As I recall, it wasn't like this when i last wore it 30+ years ago. I can only presume that the metal movement holder has warped over the years.

I don't know - I'd be very surprised if metal would warp like that. If it is anything like my Komandirskie it will have a movement ring screwed on to the movement and held in place by the gasket which extends from the case over the movement ring and doubles as a compression retainer ring. Even if the ring were to warp, it would not allow the movement to wobble. Possibly the screws holding the movement ring are loose, or the gasket or something else inside the case has shrunk with age.

The idea of metal warping like that surprises me too but the evidence is what it is.

The good news is that since my last message I've figured how the movement holder is supposed to work and I've fixed it: It has three metal tabs which angle upwards. These are supposed to touch the case back when it is screwed down thus holding the movement firmly in place. Over the years the tabs and metal ring had flexed downwards and no longer touched the case back. When I bent them up again and put the case back on, they worked perfectly: The movement will not move now.

Also this seems to have fixed the odd stopping and starting problem, not that I can directly see why that should be.

[horrovac]

Well thanks a lot, I thought i'd look into my Komandirskie (with possibly the same calibre, 2412A)

I'm not sure what movement this has. It's definitely a Vostok movement because Vostok's logo (a Cyrillic "B"-like character in a circle) appears under the balance wheel. There's a number there too, "32198", but I don't know what this indicates. I can't see any other identifying marks.

It was just a guess - the 2412 looks something like this btw:

and found it to be dry, and dirty :), so I took it apart yesterday for cleaning. Mine looks pretty bad, visibly dirty, a bit of rust on the regulator that I'll need to take care of, pallets look a bit out of line - but it still works considerably well. I did not see anything that could explain your issues (as expected).

Clearly your horological skills are considerably greater than mine. I could take a movement apart but I'd have a difficult time getting it back together. ;-)

Well about that... not really. I screwed up :). While cleaning the anchor (with a light touch) one of the pallet jewels fell off. Probably by sheer miracle, after fiddling with it for several hours, I got it back on and adjusted to the proper depth. Those things are tiny. I first put it in not deep enough (tooth would not pass), then too deep (tooth would not lock), lost the jewel two times, after several further close-but-not-quite attempts I got it about right, and stuck it on using the last tiny bit of shellac remaining in the holder. I have no raw shellac, since setting the pallet jewels was nothing I ever dreamed of doing. Anyway it ticks again, as far as I can see it works quite well. Probably up to the point the jewel drops off again.

With the watch closed. When the crown is pressed in its normal position it locks the movement in place but when the crown is pulled out to set the time then the movement can be moved around in the plane of the watch. As I recall, it wasn't like this when i last wore it 30+ years ago. I can only presume that the metal movement holder has warped over the years.

I don't know - I'd be very surprised if metal would warp like that. If it is anything like my Komandirskie it will have a movement ring screwed on to the movement and held in place by the gasket which extends from the case over the movement ring and doubles as a compression retainer ring. Even if the ring were to warp, it would not allow the movement to wobble. Possibly the screws holding the movement ring are loose, or the gasket or something else inside the case has shrunk with age.

The idea of metal warping like that surprises me too but the evidence is what it is.

The good news is that since my last message I've figured how the movement holder is supposed to work and I've fixed it: It has three metal tabs which angle upwards. These are supposed to touch the case back when it is screwed down thus holding the movement firmly in place. Over the years the tabs and metal ring had flexed downwards and no longer touched the case back. When I bent them up again and put the case back on, they worked perfectly: The movement will not move now.

Also this seems to have fixed the odd stopping and starting problem, not that I can directly see why that should be.

Ah ok, I know those movement holders. The tabs will have bent due to a repeated stress while wearing the watch, not due to warping.

A possible explanation of your problem could be, in case the tabs were bent back enough to touch or protrude into the movement, that the torque of setting the time moved the movement enough for one of the tabs to come into contact with one of the moving parts. Not particularly likely, but possible. Servicing it is probably still a good idea :)

[markrlondon]

I'd say this is not a 2412. Here is mine. Apologies for being out of focus.

Anyway it ticks again, as far as I can see it works quite well. Probably up to the point the jewel drops off again.

Well, that's the important thing. ;-)

Ah ok, I know those movement holders. The tabs will have bent due to a repeated stress while wearing the watch, not due to warping.

This would be the obvious explanation but a) the watch was hardly worn back in the 70s (I didn't like it much), and b) it wasn't like that when it went into storage. The looseness really did occur while it was in storage. I know it sounds unlikely and I wouldn't believe it unless I'd seen it but that's how it is. :-)

A possible explanation of your problem could be, in case the tabs were bent back enough to touch or protrude into the movement, that the torque of setting the time moved the movement enough for one of the tabs to come into contact with one of the moving parts. Not particularly likely, but possible. Servicing it is probably still a good idea :)

Yes, I think that is the only feasible explanation. I agree that a service is still indicated.

[Floyd]

it will definately need a service to clean out the dried-up oil and grease. That will certainly help.

Just a quick idea though, is that when the watch is fully wound and you try to put clockwise pressure on the crown, you will put an awful lot of pressure on the entire mechanism and this 'could' cause the centre-wheel with the seconds-hand to move ever-so-slightly but just enough to make the seconds hand contact with the crystal and cause the watch to stop. I've seen this before.

But either way, a good service will sort this all out. Good luck and most importantly post back your findings ;)