looking at a submariner this week....

[scoopet]

well , after alot of obsessive searching, I'm going to look at a submariner in gloucester this week.
have spoken to the chap at length ,he seems very nice, his story makes sense?!! but the box and papers have been mislaid about 10 years ago..... :shock:
Its from 86/87, the model with a date 16800?
How the heck do I tell if its genuine?
does anyone live near gloucester, know what they're looking at and want to come along for a significant amount of beer?!! :roll:
all help and advice really appreciated!

[Omegamanic]

Well hopefully the price is right - shame about the boxes and papers - worth fair bit more with them and don't forget you will have no tags or booklets.

The 16800 is nice watch, sapphire crystal and trit dial, older steel used, so the last of the 316L cased Rolex Subs. The 168000 and 16610's etc. moved on to using 904L.

I have no idea how you would tell the difference though.

You would ideally like original dial and hands, good solid case and decent bracelet with not too much stretch.

Fingers crossed and you may well end up with a nice modern vintage subby :)

[scoopet]

its the fingers crossed bit that worries me!!!

[cmcm3]

One test I always do, and I think it will be correct for the 16800 (ask around here), is that with Rolex movements past a certain era you advance the time by rolling the crown up rather than down. It's very simple and not fool-proof, but it's a very easy, subtle test that can save you a world of pain. Also get a note of the serial and pre-check it with the Rolex Lost and Stolen phoneline.

[cmcm3]

Also, if you can get him to send you a few decent photos you can post up here and there will be plenty of comment from those in the know.

[Omegamanic]

The lost and found is a very good tip.

[scoopet]

would 1500 pounds be about right for this sort of thing?Or is that still too much ?

[langdalematt]

1500 sounds too good to be true. I would be very wary indeed.

[scoopet]

that's kind of what I thought.......I can't afford to lose 1500 quid either

[LukeBird]

1500 sounds too good to be true. I would be very wary indeed.

+1
Even with no B&Ps, a running watch would be north of £3k (unless it was in dire condition!).

[erasuretim]

If you don't know what you are looking for regarding authenticity, I think that you are better off having peace of mind by buying grey with B & P or sourcing something from our sales corner from a recognised member. This watch seems too cheap to me even without box and papers. A quick google suggests that 16800 should be in the £3000 range from a dealer. Obviously I am not party to any conversations you have had with the vendor, but I would be walking.

regards

tim

[walkerwek1958]

Sounds a bit risky to me. I personally wouldn`t trust my own judgement on this, I`d want it verifying. Ideally, take it to a repairer who is able to remove the back and check the movement. Also check the serial number with Rolex to ensure it's OK. £1500 does sound cheap to me, unless the seller doesn`t know the value.

Paul

[Omegamanic]

£3k would be far too high for this.

The 16800 are still generally cheaper than the 16610 - but not for long. Depends on who is selling it - but £1500 is a very good price - if all checks out you should be very pleased. If I was over there (UK) I'd try and have a look with you - but alas no.

It could well be a good deal - I missed out on a £1500 14060 Submariner this weekend!!

[JRB]

very nice watch though

[scoopet]

well the plot thickens......I've just come off the phone with him....and asked him to tell me the serial numbers....He managed to get the strap off,just, but reckons that there is nothing written i.e. no long number on the case between the lugs on the 6 o'clock end.And a few letters G C H on the case at the 12 o'clock end?
I told him the numbers are really small but he insists ,even with his magnifying reading glasses that there's definitely nothing between the lugs at 6 oclock!
Is he blind or is this maybe a replica.He seems a lovely chap,says he paid 1300 in 86 for it, and the only time it wasn't in his posession was when it was serviced at a jewellers in swindon in about 94 for 38 pounds!!!???
am I right in telling him there should definitely be a number there?could it have been polished out?HE seems really rather concerned and worried now on the phone!
needless to say I'm not going up the M5 now tommorrow.

[mrmeat]

It could well be a good deal - I missed out on a £1500 14060 Submariner this weekend!!

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

[MartynJC (UK)]

well the plot thickens......I've just come off the phone with him....and asked him to tell me the serial numbers....He managed to get the strap off,just, but reckons that there is nothing written i.e. no long number on the case between the lugs on the 6 o'clock end.And a few letters G C H on the case at the 12 o'clock end?
I told him the numbers are really small but he insists ,even with his magnifying reading glasses that there's definitely nothing between the lugs at 6 oclock!
Is he blind or is this maybe a replica.He seems a lovely chap,says he paid 1300 in 86 for it, and the only time it wasn't in his posession was when it was serviced at a jewellers in swindon in about 94 for 38 pounds!!!???
am I right in telling him there should definitely be a number there?could it have been polished out?HE seems really rather concerned and worried now on the phone!
needless to say I'm not going up the M5 now tommorrow.

That service cost is suspicious - that is way too cheap - having no serial number doesn't sound right at all - but perhaps the seasoned Rolex guys can chip in.

[shoppy]

If in doubt meet him at a jewellers that has a watchmaker and remove the case back. Also watchmaker should be able to authenticate for you. I have done this in the past.

[Omegamanic]

Hmmm maybe his eye-sight isn't too good - should say ORIG ROLEX DESIGN and then have 16800 below that on one side and the watches serial number on the other - these do fade if rubbed though - still shouldn't be too hard to see - ask for a photo to be emailed to you of the watch and the lugs to see if you can make it out.

[tomsdad]

Firstly, at 1500 quid I'd naturally be very wary, particularly as you admit yourself you're no Rolex expert (yet!)...

Re ref numbers, model number is at 12 and serial at 6 o'clock - should be 7 digits and probably start with a 9 if it an '86 watch. If both these numbers are missing / not legible, it could mean its a fake or it could mean that the endlinks have completely rubbed the numbers away. Either way, I'd probably walk. After the dial, the case is the next most important thing to get right on a Rolex sports watch, and that means not polished to oblivion, not overly corroded / pitted, and not missing its case numbers :shock:

If you can get DETAILED pics of the case, dial, lugs etc, then post here and I'm sure someone will put you right. Failing that, I'd save the fuel and look for another one, plenty around (with full descriptions, large images and from trusted sellers).

Good luck with whatever you decide to do. :)

[scoopet]

I've got a horrible feeling that this guy might have been trying to rip me off.......I hope not ,but the more I think about it the more I think he's either really rather useless! or rather clever...he certainly stuck hard and well to his story all the way through.I might ring him in a couple of days to see if he's taken it anywhere for verification.
I potentially feel quite violated! it was probably too good to be true. :(
thanks for everyone's help and advice! :)

[Seb d]

I've got a horrible feeling that this guy might have been trying to rip me off.......I hope not ,but the more I think about it the more I think he's either really rather useless! or rather clever...he certainly stuck hard and well to his story all the way through.I might ring him in a couple of days to see if he's taken it anywhere for verification.
I potentially feel quite violated! it was probably too good to be true. :(
thanks for everyone's help and advice! :)

At least you didn't give him any money for it. Don't feel violated yet :)

[Sharky]

Hmmm, does sound far too cheap to me.

If it was me, I'd arrange to meet in Martins (Rolex AD) in central Cheltenham (not far from Gloucester), who should be able to confirm/deny that this is a genuine watch. Any genuine seller should be willing to do this

Let us know what happens?

Thanks

Mark

[jwg663]

<snip>...or it could mean that the endlinks have completely rubbed the numbers away...<snip>

I'm no Rolex expert, so could someone explain how the hollow end links could rub away numbers where they don't/shouldn't be making
contact with the case?

[LukeBird]

<snip>...or it could mean that the endlinks have completely rubbed the numbers away...<snip>

I'm no Rolex expert, so could someone explain how the hollow end links could rub away numbers where they don't/shouldn't be making
contact with the case?

The edges of the hollow links still touch the case and can damage it where they sit.

[jwg663]

<snip>...or it could mean that the endlinks have completely rubbed the numbers away...<snip>

I'm no Rolex expert, so could someone explain how the hollow end links could rub away numbers where they don't/shouldn't be making
contact with the case?

The edges of the hollow links still touch the case and can damage it where they sit.

I accept that the end links will make some contact with the case. I don't see how that contact, even over a number of years, would be sufficient
to uniformly remove the indented numbers.

[LukeBird]

I accept that the end links will make some contact with the case. I don't see how that contact, even over a number of years, would be sufficient
to uniformly remove the indented numbers.

I agree.
Although I guess with a slightly bent or damaged bracelet or end links it would be possible.
The Sub I bought was claimed to have this problem (I bought it unseen from the States), unfortunately I think the seller was being a touch economical with the truth! ;)

[Andyg]

Firstly it very rare to have the serial number completely worn away (including the Rolex Reg Design) unless it had been done on purpose - i.e. the watch was stolen.

So my question to him would be "where did he get it". If bought 2nd hand, as a gift, etc then chances are its a 15- 20 year old FAKE. Most likley an Italian one.

A few simple things to look for (if you are serious and cannot be arsed to go to the AD - not recommended).

1) A mid 80's watch should have the later dial (gloss with gold indexes - same as the 16610)
2) Strap end peices should be stamped 593
3) Strap should be stamped (on the end links) 93150
4) Clasp should marked the same and have a letter code just above it.
5) Date wheel should be silver with open 6's and open 9's - it must be quick set.
6) Bezel should by uni-directional (counter-clock wise) and have 120 clicks
7) Strap sides should not be polished
8) Lume should be as dead as a DoDo
9) Crown should be tripple lock (3 dots)
10) Get it checked out by a specialist :D

Andy

[tomsdad]

<snip>...or it could mean that the endlinks have completely rubbed the numbers away...<snip>

I'm no Rolex expert, so could someone explain how the hollow end links could rub away numbers where they don't/shouldn't be making
contact with the case?

The edges of the hollow links still touch the case and can damage it where they sit.

I accept that the end links will make some contact with the case. I don't see how that contact, even over a number of years, would be sufficient
to uniformly remove the indented numbers.

It's down to damaged / mis-shaped endlinks, which in itself is quite common on hollow versions. Over many years, the edges gently rub against the case, but only in very extreme cases would all the numbers have been worn away.

On my last 5513, fairly severe end link wear had all but worn the lower half of the serial number away, and what was left was only just legible without a loupe...

I'll let Mark Lerman from DRSD explain more fully (relating to Red Subs but same softer 316L SS as the 16800, so still applicable here):

"Case Engravings –The engravings help authenticate the case and therefore it is important that they are not completely lost from bracelet wear, pitting or intentional mistreatment. Unlike some earlier Rolex references, Red Subs generally don’t have severe bracelet wear problems or pitting. Therefore, I would not consider buying a Red Sub with engravings or a case numbers that have worn off completely. As a minimum requirement, all the case number digits must be present and accounted for. Even if the digits are missing most of their form and a 10x loupe is needed to read the numbers, as long as the full case number can be discerned, then the watch earns a passing grade in my book. Once the numbers have been confirmed and the band is back on the watch, the strength of the engravings becomes irrelevant."

[jwg663]

@ tomsdad: thanks :wink:

[lewisanderson]

Is it possible you could meet the seller in an AD and have the watch appraised (maybe for a fee).?