Becoming a micro generator - FURTHER UPDATE

[docd]

Working in manufacturing we see a lot of electrical failures of kit that is operated 24/7.
Does anyone have accurate information on the reliability of the invertors being used?
If they have a 10 year guarantee I would budget for having to replace one after 10-15 years does that affect the costing figures much?
I can't imagine that the system will be maintenance (cost) free for 25 years.
I also agree that the parts will get cheaper as the market expands (don't know about quality of said parts though!).

A very interesting thread - keep it coming :)

[Andyg]

Working in manufacturing we see a lot of electrical failures of kit that is operated 24/7.
Does anyone have accurate information on the reliability of the invertors being used?
If they have a 10 year guarantee I would budget for having to replace one after 10-15 years does that affect the costing figures much?
I can't imagine that the system will be maintenance (cost) free for 25 years.
I also agree that the parts will get cheaper as the market expands (don't know about quality of said parts though!).

A very interesting thread - keep it coming :)

I can only really answer for the kit that I purchased.

1) The Invertor I have is an Aurora made by Power One in italy. It has a 10 years warrenty (unlike other makes like SunnyBoy - which is very popular in the UK which only offer 5 year). As for reliability no figures are published, however Power One are manufactures of Mil Spec Invertors (as used in on Subs, etc). They are very well build however only time will tell how reliable they are. Replacement cost now is about £1500.

2) The panels I have a Solarworld, made in Germany and these have a 25 years warrenty and according to the spec, the perfomance will drop by less than 0.6% per year - so after 25 years they will be still working at over 85% their original rated value. The panels themselves are just silicon/glass - no moving parts or anything clever, so should last for ever.

Thats it really - the only other bits are the meters - again I have no knowledge how long these will last, however the energy company will replace them if they are busted - free of charge.

The whole system is pretty noddy - light generate DC (about 9 amps!!) which the invertor converts into AC which is feed in to the mains.

The only really clever bit is that the Invertor has a wi-fi connection - which is connected to a desk-top monitor/display so you can see exactly how much you are generating - currently on a cloudless October day (at 11.00) is generating 1.823Kw :D

Andy

[MattH]

I also went a bit over kill (probably) as my 2.35 system has a 3.6kw invertor (same Power one as Andy) which gives me room to expand if I want to.

It should also be mentioned that you shoudl check the efficiency of the invertor - no point in collecting all that power if the invertor chucks a huge part of it away in the conversion.

The power One invertor I have I think is about 98% efficient.. (and you can see this as the numbers are not in sync between the invertor and the meter on the wall)

[langtoft lad]

Apologies if this has been answered in the previous seven pages - but what is the effect of inflation and/or higher interest rates?

Are the rates of return inflation proofed?
And how does the investment stand up if we return to high interest rates eg 10% ?

[series5]

String inverters (which most people have) come with a 5 or 10 year warranty typically. This can be extended through an extended warranty with an additional payment. For most people, the inverter will go south during the 25 years and many will over look the cost of replacing it. For many, they will not see change out of £1000. This, obviously, should be factored into the cost of ownership and ROI calculation.

Our system uses micro inversion (well, it will, when they finally arrive and are installed). With micro inversion the reliability issues are mitigated to some degree because the technology operates at a lower voltage and with less system stress. The downside is that micro inversion requires an inverter per panel (or, sometimes, per two panels). The up front cost of this is higher but, with a 20 year warranty, they "should" last as long as the FIT.

Micro inverters are slightly less efficient than string inverters but they do optimise each panels output. A string inverter can only harvest energy based upon the worst performing panel in that string. If one panel is in shade for part of the day, the whole array drops off. With micro inversion, that one panel will provide less energy but all of the others will harvest at their full potential. Micro inversion suits us because we have some shade.

We have a 10 year labour warranty on our system. This is done through a third party so we are immune to our supplier leaving the industry.

We hope, with the contingency that we have built in, that our system will be optimally harvesting to provide a maximised annuity while remaining in the peak of health long after other inverters have gone to the recycling centre. .... but time will tell !

[Andyg]

Apologies if this has been answered in the previous seven pages - but what is the effect of inflation and/or higher interest rates?

Are the rates of return inflation proofed?
And how does the investment stand up if we return to high interest rates eg 10% ?

The FITs are linked to RPI - so if inflation does go up then so will RPI (and your FIT). Also if inflation increases then so does your existing energy costs - double wammy. If the interest rates go up, this will automatically increase inflation, which in turn will cause an RPI increase pushing the FIT upwards. A closed loop feedback system :D

There are only 3 ways which might create a negative outcome
a) if the Bank of England sets a interest saving rate of 10% and a borrowing rate of 0.5%, if inflation (RPI) is at zero and this all is fixed for the next 25 years. I suppose its possible just as I suppose its possible that pigs may fly.

b) if the goverment stops paying the FIT - which is possible for people who do not yet own a PV but highly unlikely for those who have have already made the investment and have contracts. The impact of this would be the UK missing its emmision target, EU fines, a considerable number of people(voters) being very pissed off, great use to carbon fuels, etc, etc. All bad news.

c) Someone invents a cheap system of generating power (cold fusion? the flux capacitor :D ) which can deployed very quickly and at minimal low cost. In which case who cares about PV systems - free energy for life :wink:

Andy

[series5]

Andy,

Flex capacitors are so yesterday.... my money for future energy creation is in "infrasonic sub muting filtration".

However, we all know that this is some way off so I am investing in PV while I wait for for this new technology to mature :lol:

[Andyg]

Andy,

Flex capacitors are so yesterday.... my money for future energy creation is in "infrasonic sub muting filtration".

However, we all know that this is some way off so I am investing in PV while I wait for for this new technology to mature :lol:

:D :D Me to - happy for the folks down to road to say "told you so" when this finally arrives (Cold fusion is a possibility if they can do it without destroying the planet .

I ahve been investigating the mirco Invertors and concluded they are not cheap - about £150 a pop - which based upon 15 Panels comes in at £2250 (plus fitting - which is more expensive that the string type)

I can certainly see the benefit from a potentional performance perspective of Micro invertors, especially if you have any shading (which I do) however not cheap!!

Perhaps this is retrofit option when my String Invertor goes put (10 years and 1 day knowing my luck!).

I am sure you have already done your homework, however have you checked that these invertors are MCS approved - otherwise NO FIT payments.

Andy

[series5]

Hi Andy,

yes, homework done over and over again. Been around in circles several times and reached this conclusion. We have next doors chimney and their aerial first thing in the morning and our chimney in late afternoon - both on different panels and both would have pulled the string down and lost a whole lot of harvest. Micro inversion isn't cheap but, on the basis that it should last the length of the FIT it will be one item that will not need replacing. Two inverters are roughly the price of the micro inversion installation and, with luck, we have shade mitigation to boot.

Everything is MCS and Real accredited and the micro's are approved by the DNO. Fingers crossed, when they arrive, the system should "rock".

[Tahiti]

Ps- a 4kWp system can now be bought for £10k!!!

I must Google if that's the case!

You can buy a car for £6K, but it does not mean it any good

I've paid less than £6k for a car before that's been flawless for years :D

Back on topic though, I rarely jump at things - I always research and re-research. I was just astounded that the prices were at that level these days.

[Stuart D]

Double post

[Stuart D]

MCS requirements states that all equipment (and that includes the inverter) must be guaranteed for a minimum of 10- years. Panels after 25 years must have an operating efficiency of no less than 80% of the original kWp output.
Typical 'simple' payback of a 3.85kWp system is 6.8 years for a hybryd panel system. Anything much higher then I would be questioning the quote (scaffolding excluded)

[Andyg]

Hi Andy,

yes, homework done over and over again. Been around in circles several times and reached this conclusion. We have next doors chimney and their aerial first thing in the morning and our chimney in late afternoon - both on different panels and both would have pulled the string down and lost a whole lot of harvest. Micro inversion isn't cheap but, on the basis that it should last the length of the FIT it will be one item that will not need replacing. Two inverters are roughly the price of the micro inversion installation and, with luck, we have shade mitigation to boot.

Everything is MCS and Real accredited and the micro's are approved by the DNO. Fingers crossed, when they arrive, the system should "rock".

Sounds like a plan - will be interested to hear how you get on.

Andy

[Andyg]

MCS requirements states that all equipment (and that includes the inverter) must be guaranteed for a minimum of 10- years. Panels after 25 years must have an operating efficiency of no less than 80% of the original kWp output.
Typical 'simple' payback of a 3.85kWp system is 6.8 years for a hybryd panel system. Anything much higher then I would be questioning the quote (scaffolding excluded)

Sorry mate, you are wrong - sunnyboy inverters are MCS approved but only have a 5 year warranty.

Andy

[RogDen]

Scaffolding up yesterday, my panels being fitted monday

[Glamdring]

Cool. You can paint the soffits and gutters whilst they're there.

[stooo]

Just given the go-ahead for a 3kwp install so I can join the [s:1nexiynq]tree hugging[/s:1nexiynq] cashing in club.

Oh Sunny Boy, the rays, the rays are calling
From cash to cash, and down the roof side
The summer's gone, and all the flowers are dying
'Tis you, 'tis you must go and I must bide.
But come ye back when summer's in the meadow
Or when the valley's hushed and white with snow
'Tis I'll be here in sunshine or in shadow
Oh Sunny Boy, oh Sunny Boy, I love you so.

[Andyg]

Just given the go-ahead for a 3kwp install so I can join the [s:3gymbgyf]tree hugging[/s:3gymbgyf] cashing in club.

Oh Sunny Boy, the rays, the rays are calling
From cash to cash, and down the roof side
The summer's gone, and all the flowers are dying
'Tis you, 'tis you must go and I must bide.
But come ye back when summer's in the meadow
Or when the valley's hushed and white with snow
'Tis I'll be here in sunshine or in shadow
Oh Sunny Boy, oh Sunny Boy, I love you so.

More poetic that power one :D

Welcome to the club - plus you might had got in just in time as the tariff for new joiners in 2012 might be lower.

Seems like the gov underestimated the number of people who would want Pv systems - it seems that twice as many people as expected decided to get cheap energy - :shock: :D

Andy

[Stuart D]

MCS requirements states that all equipment (and that includes the inverter) must be guaranteed for a minimum of 10- years. Panels after 25 years must have an operating efficiency of no less than 80% of the original kWp output.
Typical 'simple' payback of a 3.85kWp system is 6.8 years for a hybryd panel system. Anything much higher then I would be questioning the quote (scaffolding excluded)

Sorry mate, you are wrong - sunnyboy inverters are MCS approved but only have a 5 year warranty.

Andy

You are right (mate) - The REAL Assurance code has a section on guarantees...http://www.realassurance.org.uk/sche...er-code#tag8.1
...but I can’t see any explicit rules as to what they must offer in terms of years; more a set of guidelines on how to offer a guarantee that’s worth the paper it’s written on. Not sure if I’m missing anything else, but I can’t see anything concrete on that at all….

[Stuart D]

This however is worrying on many leavels if true! :(
http://www.businessgreen.com/bg/news...fs-cut-21p-kwh
http://www.businessgreen.com/digital...fact_sheet.pdf
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environmen...munity-schemes

[RABbit]

Arrggggghhhhhh...
I need to get a Certificate of Lawfulness prior to giving the go-ahead for installation, as I don't want to risk applying for retrospective Planning Permission and the possibility it would be denied. The Council's deadline for reply is 15th Nov. The installation company have a lead time of about 6 weeks.
If the eligibility date is going to be the 8th December, I'm screwed unless I take a risk on the CoL and even then it is tight.

This proposal is going to kill domestic solar PV completely, so well done to anyone who managed to get in at the start!

[stooo]

As 2 posts back.

I paid a deposit on Weds. Leadtime is ~6 weeks.

At best it could be touch and go for me. Cooling off period is 7 days so I can get my deposit back on Tuesday if needed. If I go ahead and the proposal is right I will be looking for committed installation dates from the installer.

Its a crude way of doing it if the wording is right. They would be better basing it on the date deposits are/were paid rather than when FIT form is 'received' (whatever that means).

e-mail your MP. I have.

[Stuart D]

I don't want to risk applying for retrospective Planning Permission and the possibility it would be denied.

This proposal is going to kill domestic solar PV completely, so well done to anyone who managed to get in at the start!

I would be surprised if you need planning permission to a domestic dwelling unless you live in a listed building or in a conservation area?

Well don't forget that the cost of PV can now be bought at £2k / kWp and the price is dropping weekly. Last week we ere told of a 3.82kWp system that was installed for £6K! And yes it was MCS accredited...

[RABbit]

I would be surprised if you need planning permission to a domestic dwelling unless you live in a listed building or in a conservation area?

No I don't but it is rural and the local Council are jobsworths when it comes to planning (I needed planning permission to install a Velux window which is normally permitted development). I can't see why they would refuse a Certificate but it's an expensive gamble :(

[Andyg]

Arrggggghhhhhh...
I need to get a Certificate of Lawfulness prior to giving the go-ahead for installation, as I don't want to risk applying for retrospective Planning Permission and the possibility it would be denied. The Council's deadline for reply is 15th Nov. The installation company have a lead time of about 6 weeks.
If the eligibility date is going to be the 8th December, I'm screwed unless I take a risk on the CoL and even then it is tight.

This proposal is going to kill domestic solar PV completely, so well done to anyone who managed to get in at the start!

I just rang the planning officer and got an eMail.

Personally I would still go head - once it's up whats the worst that can happen :D remember it took 10 years to evict the pikey's off Dale farm :D Plus the local councils are under pressure to grant applications. Especially if it's not listed or in an conservation area

No if it was my money I would give it punt rather than accept 21p

Good luck andy

Andy

[timlin]

That ups the ante.

I will have to contact my installer to see if this timescale is achievable for me.

Will also not panic and see what is said on Monday.

[RABbit]

I just rang the planning officer and got an eMail.

Personally I would still go head - once it's up whats the worst that can happen :D remember it took 10 years to evict the pikey's off Dale farm :D Plus the local councils are under pressure to grant applications. Especially if it's not listed or in an conservation area

No if it was my money I would give it punt rather than accept 21p

Good luck andy

Andy

Yes, so did I, and my email said "Apply for a Certificate of Lawfulness". Very annoying as there is nothing about my place that should deny permitted development.

21p per unit is unviable, approx 16-18 yrs payback. I will mull it over this weekend and see what the actual announcement is on Monday.

[RABbit]

So the eligibility date has been announced as 12th Dec...will have to make a decision today...

[Stuart D]

Ouch!

http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cm.../pn11_091.aspx

:cry:

[stooo]

I too need to make a decision today.

Do I have confidence the installation can take place and the paperwork be in my hands by 7/12 so I can forward it to nPower or do I just get my deposit back?

The mockery in all this is the 'consultation' period ends 23/12.. so it's really a done deal as far as the changes go.

[RABbit]

Well, I have an installation date of 28/29th Nov, so should be able to beat the deadline. Have to hope the Council do the right thing. The company are furiously bringing forward other installs!

[series5]

It's a tough call. Aside from the consultation period the theory is that the 6 weeks or so should be enough for anybody who has signed up for an installation to get the work done and the paperwork submitted.

I suspect the reality is that PV companies will be working 24 hours a day and charging high mark ups in order to satisfy the demand. Inevitably, this will lead to rushed work (in some cases) and a shortage of raw materials (inverters, panels and rails).

If you are planning to get PV, do it immediately. If you have identified an installer, book it today. If you are just considering the possibility of installing PV, unless you skip due diligence, I fear you will have missed the boat. In all honesty, skipping due diligence could cost you big time:

a) you could pay excessively high prices for a system that is distinctly average

b) you could end up having a system thrown up on your roof which is unsightly (and will reduce the value of your house) and doesn't adhere to installation guidelines for load, wind and rain run off - all of which could cost you more in the long run.

c) you could end up having a system which isn't properly designed (the result being that your energy harvest will be much reduced and you wont get a decent return on your investment even with the drop in the tariff)

d) you could choose a company that exists today and is bankrupt by the start of 2012 (unless you buy an independent warranty, in the event of needing to make a claim, you could be stuffed).

It's a huge investment - I know, I have done it - you need to be quick, but not too quick.

[RABbit]

I've been looking into it for months, since Andyg's first review, and had several quotes etc. I'm happy with my company, they've been doing PV for more than 10 years.
Deposit paid today, so fingers crossed.

[stooo]

My installer is saying they can install everything upto those with deposits paid yesterday.

I feel for those in the industry. A lot of people are going to have a lousy Christmas because of this.

[stooo]

Oh well, that is me committed. Let's just hope the installer is true to their word and can deliver this when they say they can.

If they can't I am going to draw an ExpII on my wrist and if anyone dares question it's authenticity they will get a smack in the chops.

[scubadude760]

good luck hope it all works out

[stooo]

good luck hope it all works out

Cool.

[Stuart D]

I feel for those in the industry. A lot of people are going to have a lousy Christmas because of this.

At the beginning of FIT some 18-months or so ago the PV industry employed 3000 people. Up until the end of September the industry employed 25,000 people. I fear knee jerk reactions to this proposed change in FIT and individuals who may have put their eggs into one basket may find themselves out on the street. We heard of one contractor today who had 46 jobs cancelled yesterday and thus laid a similar number of men off at a stroke.

[Andyg]

I am glad that those who can - have. It really is a great deal and even for those who miss the Dec cut-off, its still a good deal if you factor in the increasing costs of energy (8%/year). Even at 21p you will not lose money.

Andy (feeling a bit smug at the moment :wink: )

[bigbaddom3]

I had only started looking into this a month ago...
Its now a no go....
Hopefully something else will be introduced, or the numbers changed...

[NickB]

Sorry, I have not read the whole post but I read this earlier today and thought worth sharing:

http://www.greenwisebusiness.co.uk/news ... -2750.aspx

[Andyg]

Just recieved my latest cheque (July, Aug, Sept) £413 quid.

Nice :D - so thats a grand total of £1055 quid (tax free) recieved in the last 12 months.

Excluding the £340 rebate I got back on the electricty standing order.

So a just under 10% return on my original investment of £10,599

Andy

[MattH]

Hi,

What KW sized system do you have now ( I have lost track) - and was it £10.5k at the beginning... clearly I got carried away somehow :)

I am just over £900 in money since Feb (done just over 2100kwh) on a 2.35 KW system

Thanks

Matt

[Andyg]

Hi,

What KW sized system do you have now ( I have lost track) - and was it £10.5k at the beginning... clearly I got carried away somehow :)

I am just over £900 in money since Feb (done just over 2100kwh) on a 2.35 KW system

Thanks

Matt

Hi Matt, mine was a 2.25kw system until end of august when it became a 3.6kw system ( via 5 more panels at a slightly better spec).

Andy

[hogthrob]

Just a heads up for those yet to, or in the process of committing to this - the Government is bringing forward the date that FITs are cut, from April 2012 to 12 December this year. So if you're not signed up to a 43p per kWh deal before then, you'll only get 21p per kWh.

There are going to be some legal challenges against this decision, as peroted in the news.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2 ... idies-cuts

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15687873

[Andyg]

Even at 21p it still remains a good deal.

Say you get a 2.2KW system which generates 1900KW/year then you will "earn" £400/year + you will save approx £200 on your current electric bill = £600.

If the system costs £7K (which is possible), then you will recover your investment within 12 years (assuming electic prices stay where they are). However please note that the Scheme runs until 2035, therefore you will still make a "profit" of over 7K during the remaining term - assuming electric prices remain the sam - which is highly unlikely. All which is Tax free.

Also remember that the 21p is INDEXED LINK so is likely to increase with inflation (currently at 4%) thus making your 12 years actually more like 10 years.

If you keep you 7K in a savings account you might get 2% return after tax if you are lucky.

Just a thought

Andy

[stooo]

Installed today and paperwork waiting to be sent off tomorrow.

Phew.

Well done Urban Energy.

[Andyg]

Installed today and paperwork waiting to be sent off tomorrow.

Phew.

Well done Urban Energy.

You did uban energy as well - good lads, once you get past Colin :D

Andy

[stooo]

Installed today and paperwork waiting to be sent off tomorrow.

Phew.

Well done Urban Energy.

You did uban energy as well - good lads, once you get past Colin :D

Andy

took your recommendation, cheers. Not all plain sailing, but not calm seas just now.

[andyjay]

Well, our scaffolding is up, panels and wiring booked for 26th Nov. Wifey is looking forward to using the generated to run the tumble dryer! I feel that there are lessons to be taught...