Paying the builder dilemma

I'm currently renovating my house we purchased last month
A builder has just started an extension out the back he said it will take him 6 weeks and I'm paying stage payments
10k then 5 and 5 until etc etc and final 5 on completion
He said to me today he will be finished in 4 weeks so need to pay more and get it all paid soon
My problem is I'm relying on money coming in from work to pay him and won't have it all till after 6 weeks as agreed
Where do I stand on this ? I don't want to fall out with the builder I'll just tell him the truth I think

Be straight with him,he may go to another job to ease his cashflow, be prepared for his side of the conversation to be motivated by need.

As said, you need to talk to him and tell him the situation.
Being open will allow you both to resolve the issue amicably.

Not sure but did you have the payment schedule in writing anywhere? My in laws had their kitchen done and paid a massive chunk towards the end, the work slowed right down and they were going up to a week without seeing or hearing from him at a time. He was using that money to sort his next job out I guess

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SteveR

Not sure but did you have the payment schedule in writing anywhere? My in laws had their kitchen done and paid a massive chunk towards the end, the work slowed right down and they were going up to a week without seeing or hearing from him at a time. He was using that money to sort his next job out I guess

---

No. Nothing in writing. Just a verbal agreement really
I could stall in ordering my kitchen I suppose so it slows him down a bit

Tricky one - we just had 3 flat roofs and 2 pitchen roofs replaced - verbally agreed very little. He only wanted 10% once materials were on site - then nothing else until completed and snagging done. We were very lucky to find him.... did a great job

Talk and be open

As a builder myself my advice is to stick to the verbal agreement you made with him at the start.
As for what's been said above about him hedging his bets perhaps, it's that kind of behaviour that smears the domestic level building company.
If he's going to complete 2 weeks earlier than planned, ask him to refund you the two weeks labour charge that he had obviously allowed for in his original estimate to you.
Don't lie down and roll over to him. A deal is a deal.

This is a bit difficult but I would just be honest and say you've sorted your funds out according to what you agreed at the outset and aren't in a position to change things. Can't see how he wouldn't agree to that as that was was decided on.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Devonian

This is a bit difficult but I would just be honest and say you've sorted your funds out according to what you agreed at the outset and aren't in a position to change things. Can't see how he wouldn't agree to that as that was was decided on.

---

This 100% for me - communicate honestly and stick to what has been agreed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by reggie747

As a builder myself my advice is to stick to the verbal agreement you made with him at the start.
As for what's been said above about him hedging his bets perhaps, it's that kind of behaviour that smears the domestic level building company.
If he's going to complete 2 weeks earlier than planned, ask him to refund you the two weeks labour charge that he had obviously allowed for in his original estimate to you.
Don't lie down and roll over to him. A deal is a deal.

---

Interesting your comment on on asking for a refund on labour if the job finishes early, is not a price a price? If the job overruns a week or more would the customer be expected to pay more labour even if a price was agreed at the outset.

Reason I ask is I have a reasonable amount of rental properties and regularly have work done on them. I have some excellent trades people I use - window fitters, electrician, decorator and plumber all extremely reliable. Where I've had problems is with a builder or carpenter. One chap I've used is very good skill wise but very slow. I've been caught out by him in the past as I've not good a price a couple of times and he's dragged it out, so last couple of years I've had him on a price and what should have been 5 days worked he turned into 9! At his cost though. I recently used someone in my business and was so impressed I've started using him on my home and rentals. He did a part extension at home recently which he said would be around 3 weeks on a price. He worked like the clappers and finished in 2 - wouldn't have seemed right to ask for a discount. His quality was excellent and if I'd had the other guy on it he'd have taken a month or more.

I wouldnt be paying anything, I have a builder and me and him have agreed that nothing gets paid upfront, once a weeks worth of work is done I pay him a figure to help with wages etc. (labour only) then the final payment at the end of the job for materials etc. .

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by reggie747

If he's going to complete 2 weeks earlier than planned, ask him to refund you the two weeks labour charge that he had obviously allowed for in his original estimate to you.
Don't lie down and roll over to him. A deal is a deal.

---

I'd be asking about the labour as well. If he's finishing a lot earlier than the original timescale then unless he's throwing more manpower at it I don't understand why you'd have to pay the original cost quote.

There's lots of ways to look at it has as been discussed I'm happy to pay the pull price quoted No probs at all
Just I don't have thefull amount in 4 weeks but I do in the 6.
He could use the other 2 weeks on another job and make extra income ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lenlec

There's lots of ways to look at it has as been discussed I'm happy to pay the pull price quoted No probs at all
Just I don't have thefull amount in 4 weeks but I do in the 6.
He could use the other 2 weeks on another job and make extra income ?

---

I think I would say the same - possibly offer a post dated cheque so he finishes ahead of schedule still ?

Just be open and honest. I'm sure you won't be the first person in this sistuation.

Have to say I disagree about asking for a discount on a job quote , different matter if you were paying a day rate, glad you're not going to ask for a discount .

Fair points on the labour charge, if the quote was to get the job done and not based on a day rate then the cost is the cost.

OP - as has already been said many times, have a word with him and explain the situation.

Thanks for the advice. This is the 1st time I've had work like this done. It's a steep learning curve
It eats up money like I can't believe
There's loads of things I had forgotten about.

With regard to labour charges/build costs, unless he's worked night and day shifts with an army of operatives, how has he completed a 6 week job in 4 weeks ?

As per my original reply, stick to the deal you agreed with him in the first place. End of.

I am doing the same with approx a further 60m2 of extensions.

I did a detailed programme and cost plan prior to starting at the end of Feb. I felt this exercise was an absolute must to have a rolling review of where I am with budget forecast and out turn costs.

It maybe to late for you but PM me your email and I will send templates over.

Don't beat yourself up it's very easy for this kind of work to run away and housing development is my line of business.

Pitch

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by reggie747

With regard to labour charges/build costs, unless he's worked night and day shifts with an army of operatives, how has he completed a 6 week job in 4 weeks ?

As per my original reply, stick to the deal you agreed with him in the first place. End of.

---

God knows , as long as he does the job right I'm more than happy to pay the full amount he's only been on it 2 days but already footing been dug concrete poured today and starts brickwork tomorrow

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lenlec

There's lots of ways to look at it has as been discussed I'm happy to pay the pull price quoted No probs at all
Just I don't have thefull amount in 4 weeks but I do in the 6.
He could use the other 2 weeks on another job and make extra income ?

---

then a revised payment profile will suit both parties? In regard to the discount on labor,you will have no idea how many hours he quoted for, have the same hours been divided by more staff?

Just read your post above, hes a bit optimistic given hes only just started.

I never use a builder who wants staged payments, they get paid when it's done and I'm happy with it.

I'm guessing he will not be finished in 4 x weeks and is simply trying to get all of the money out of you sooner than agreed. The risk is that, having paid all the money in 4 x weeks, you will be left with a further 2 x weeks work unfinished but paid for.

This means that there is no incentive for the builder to finish the job as he/she has all the money for the job.

From my personal experience, once a builder has all the money for a job, then it's very difficult to get them to return to finish a job off. You will end up spending a lot of time on the phone trying to beg, plead,threaten and cajole the builder to return to complete the job.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alpha4

I'm guessing he will not be finished in 4 x weeks and is simply trying to get all of the money out of you sooner than agreed. The risk is that, having paid all the money in 4 x weeks, you will be left with a further 2 x weeks work unfinished but paid for.

This means that there is no incentive for the builder to finish the job as he/she has all the money for the job.

From my personal experience, once a builder has all the money for a job, then it's very difficult to get them to return to finish a job off. You will end up spending a lot of time on the phone trying to beg, plead,threaten and cajole the builder to return to complete the job.

---

Sounds like you need to find new builders. I'm pretty sure not all builders are sharks as you describe.

As MB2 recommends - post dated cheque and explanation is the best option.


Sent from my iPhone using TZ-UK mobile app

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CardShark

Fair points on the labour charge, if the quote was to get the job done and not based on a day rate then the cost is the cost.

OP - as has already been said many times, have a word with him and explain the situation.

---

This is something a lot of people get the hump with when a tradesman finishes in their eyes "early" when a price was agreed without a timescale. Which is of course irrelevant. In this case above I'd be happy it's completed early but will need clarification on reduced cost if any and say the money isn't available now simple as that and will be at the agreeded time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Onelasttime

Sounds like you need to find new builders. I'm pretty sure not all builders are sharks as you describe.

---

Tell me about it! It's finding a good, reliable, skilful one that's the problem. I don't think all builders are sharks and I didn't say that. Here's my most recent experiences:

Heating specialist who came to service my Rayburn and line the chimney. Wrecked top half of the chimney stack, said he would fix it himself. Went away, didn't return so I had to get scaffolding and two old-time brickies to come and rebuild the stack and hang the liner.

Plumber who came to fix a leak in the boiler pipework. After about an hour of swearing and moaning about the inaccessibility of the pipework, managed to demolish a section of the kitchen ceiling (accident or deliberate - some of the edges of the hole were suspiciously straight) whereupon he could miraculously get at the leaking pipe from below to fix it. Went away whilst telling the missus to phone the plumbing agency to get the ceiling fixed. Sourced through well-known internet Rating Agency.

Supposedly reputable, long-standing Window company who forgot to tell me I would need lintels on all the downstairs windows when they took the old Birmingham Box frames out. This resulted in brickwork eventually sagging above said windows. Phoned them up to rectify (still under guarantee) only to find they had gone out of business and started up as a new company (phone number, personnel, vans, etc all the same, but name changed from xxxxxxx Windows to xxxxxx Glazing). So guarantee is worthless. Apparently, they do this regularly but the names are so similar nobody notices).

The above is probably why I have a jaundiced view of builders. Who can blame me?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alpha4

Tell me about it! It's finding a good, reliable, skilful one that's the problem. I don't think all builders are sharks and I didn't say that. Here's my most recent experiences:

Heating specialist who came to service my Rayburn and line the chimney. Wrecked top half of the chimney stack, said he would fix it himself. Went away, didn't return so I had to get scaffolding and two old-time brickies to come and rebuild the stack and hang the liner.

Plumber who came to fix a leak in the boiler pipework. After about an hour of swearing and moaning about the inaccessibility of the pipework, managed to demolish a section of the kitchen ceiling (accident or deliberate - some of the edges of the hole were suspiciously straight) whereupon he could miraculously get at the leaking pipe from below to fix it. Went away whilst telling the missus to phone the plumbing agency to get the ceiling fixed. Sourced through well-known internet Rating Agency.

Supposedly reputable, long-standing Window company who forgot to tell me I would need lintels on all the downstairs windows when they took the old Birmingham Box frames out. This resulted in brickwork eventually sagging above said windows. Phoned them up to rectify (still under guarantee) only to find they had gone out of business and started up as a new company (phone number, personnel, vans, etc all the same, but name changed from xxxxxxx Windows to xxxxxx Glazing). So guarantee is worthless. Apparently, they do this regularly but the names are so similar nobody notices).

The above is probably why I have a jaundiced view of builders. Who can blame me?

---

Yes, it would have been nice of them to have told you about the problem but to be fair, your failed lintels weren't the fault of the window fitter and wouldn't have been covered by their guarantee.

- - - Updated - - -

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alpha4

Tell me about it! It's finding a good, reliable, skilful one that's the problem. I don't think all builders are sharks and I didn't say that. Here's my most recent experiences:

Heating specialist who came to service my Rayburn and line the chimney. Wrecked top half of the chimney stack, said he would fix it himself. Went away, didn't return so I had to get scaffolding and two old-time brickies to come and rebuild the stack and hang the liner.

Plumber who came to fix a leak in the boiler pipework. After about an hour of swearing and moaning about the inaccessibility of the pipework, managed to demolish a section of the kitchen ceiling (accident or deliberate - some of the edges of the hole were suspiciously straight) whereupon he could miraculously get at the leaking pipe from below to fix it. Went away whilst telling the missus to phone the plumbing agency to get the ceiling fixed. Sourced through well-known internet Rating Agency.

Supposedly reputable, long-standing Window company who forgot to tell me I would need lintels on all the downstairs windows when they took the old Birmingham Box frames out. This resulted in brickwork eventually sagging above said windows. Phoned them up to rectify (still under guarantee) only to find they had gone out of business and started up as a new company (phone number, personnel, vans, etc all the same, but name changed from xxxxxxx Windows to xxxxxx Glazing). So guarantee is worthless. Apparently, they do this regularly but the names are so similar nobody notices).

The above is probably why I have a jaundiced view of builders. Who can blame me?

---

Yes, it would have been nice of them to have told you about the problem but to be fair, your failed lintels weren't the fault of the window fitter and wouldn't have been covered by their guarantee.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tom waring

As MB2 recommends - post dated cheque and explanation is the best option.


Sent from my iPhone using TZ-UK mobile app

---

Not sure if this is true, however I remember my bank telling me years a go you weren't supposed to post date cheques, even though loads of people do.

whether it's true or not, what if he presents the cheque and it gets cashed? I have known of that happening where the bank didn't pick up on the date. Long time a go and may not be possible now, but just in case ....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fords

I never use a builder who wants staged payments, they get paid when it's done and I'm happy with it.

---

me neither. I always buy my materials myself too and put trademen on day rate. But i kow the guys and they work very hard

I agree with most people be honest and upfront

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by draftsmann

Yes, it would have been nice of them to have told you about the problem but to be fair, your failed lintels weren't the fault of the window fitter and wouldn't have been covered by their guarantee.

- - - Updated - - -



Yes, it would have been nice of them to have told you about the problem but to be fair, your failed lintels weren't the fault of the window fitter and wouldn't have been covered by their guarantee.

---

Really, they are responsible as they are replacing the windows, unless you think that a competent window outfit would not be aware of the structural issues that can affect the fitting of the replacements. Without knowing the full details it would sound like they are a bunch of cowboys.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by deryckb

Really, they are responsible as they are replacing the windows, unless you think that a competent window outfit would not be aware of the structural issues that can affect the fitting of the replacements. Without knowing the full details it would sound like they are a bunch of cowboys.

---

A diligent window fitter who is asked to instal windows in an unsound structure would point out the structural issues to the customer. But they clearly aren't "responsible" for them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fords

I never use a builder who wants staged payments, they get paid when it's done and I'm happy with it.

---

I've done various building projects over the years and am in the middle of one now. Anything over £5k builder has always asked for stage payments. Especially for an expensive works likes extensions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by eagletower

I've done various building projects over the years and am in the middle of one now. Anything over £5k builder has always asked for stage payments. Especially for an expensive works likes extensions.

---

I suppose it's all down to how much credit they have at the Builders Merchants then, I only do renovations on property I own now. The last one cost 12k but I had my own guys doing the rip out and refit, the most expensive part being the new kitchen and French doors with new windows all round.



Sent from my iPhone using TZ-UK mobile app

Agreed price is agreed price end of if the works right and it's finished early that's his bonus as others have said would you foot the bill if it took an extra couple of weeks can't have it all ways, just be up front and honest with him you budgeted to have the cash ready in 6 weeks time not 4 weeks whilst you appreciate it being finished early you won't have the cash until x date.
I can honestly say anyone trying to haggle me down after agreeing to the price because in their eyes I'd finished early wouldn't get very far and certainly wouldn't get me doing any work for them again but then that's one reason I don't touch domestic stuff.

Price of job is £27k
So I'd agreed £10 k after the 1st week then I'm gonna offer
2500 per week for 4 weeks then 7000 final payment after the 6 th week

When he said it he would be done. I thinks that's more than fair ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lenlec

Price of job is £27k
So I'd agreed £10 k after the 1st week then I'm gonna offer
2500 per week for 4 weeks then 7000 final payment after the 6 th week

When he said it he would be done. I thinks that's more than fair ?

---

Sell your Daytona
I'll give you £5 k for it

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sweepinghand

Sell your Daytona
I'll give you £5 k for it

---

Hey John. I've been seriously considering selling it ya know. My Mrs wants me too sell it to pay for the kitchen

There's a fixed price and an (initially) fixed date when the work would be finished and there's a fixed payment scheme you both agree on. You're not questioning the price, you're only 'in trouble' when he's finished earlier. You get in trouble because the builder wants to change the payment rules halfway through the build because it's his advantage when you pay up early - and the builder is making it your problem. But who's problem is it? It should be on his plate: he is the one that didn't plan correctly and his payment of his bills is calculated on the initial first fixed date. That's his responsibility when nothing is stated in the contract about you paying larger sums and paying quicker.

Tell him your situation but not as an excuse (apart from that: it is a valid reason why you cannot come up with the sum now). Tell it simply as a statement how things are and stick to the plan you both agreed on.

Menno

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lenlec

Hey John. I've been seriously considering selling it ya know. My Mrs wants me too sell it to pay for the kitchen

---

Well you know where to sell it

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by thieuster

There's a fixed price and an (initially) fixed date when the work would be finished and there's a fixed payment scheme you both agree on. You're not questioning the price, you're only 'in trouble' when he's finished earlier. You get in trouble because the builder wants to change the payment rules halfway through the build because it's his advantage when you pay up early - and the builder is making it your problem. But who's problem is it? It should be on his plate: he is the one that didn't plan correctly and his payment of his bills is calculated on the initial first fixed date. That's his responsibility when nothing is stated in the contract about you paying larger sums and paying quicker.

Tell him your situation but not as an excuse (apart from that: it is a valid reason why you cannot come up with the sum now). Tell it simply as a statement how things are and stick to the plan you both agreed on.

Menno

---

Bang on menno I think

Re: a deduction for saved labour costs?

The builder wasn't being paid 'by the day' so who's to say he didn't deploy more men than he originally anticipated?

4 men on a job for 6 weeks = 120 'shifts' (assuming a 5 day week) so at say, £200/'man shift' = £24,000.00

If he put 6 men on the job and finished in 4 weeks his labour cost is the same.