Timegrapher advice

Decided one of these would be a worthwhile purchase so did the deed and it arrived this morning https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...8fa90d399b.jpg. From what I can gather it's fine to leave the beat rate on "auto" as it should be able to figure that out without me manually inputting it. The next field is more problematic to me. The "lift angle" is defaulted to 52 degrees and from reading up online it seems 52degrees is the norm for most (modern) watches, but if you enter the lift angle incorrectly then the results can be inaccurate. This is my problem - how do you find out the lift angle for your watch? I read somewhere that my Omega SMPc for example with the coaxial has a lift angle somewhere in the 30s for example, and that vintage pieces often aren't 52deg either?

Lastly is there a standard orientation to measure the watch? Should I measure face up crown up and top up then average the results?

Looking forward to seeing how best to use the new toy and seeing the results. Might be an expensive purchase if it throws up servicing needs tho [emoji48]


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I found this to be useful and there is a link in the lift angle section - doesn't cover everything, but fairly good:

http://www.wristtimes.com/blog-1/201...-a-timegrapher

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Originally Posted by mtagrant

I found this to be useful and there is a link in the lift angle section - doesn't cover everything, but fairly good:

http://www.wristtimes.com/blog-1/201...-a-timegrapher

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Ah that's useful. I see I wasn't going mad then re the SMPc lift angle then!


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Turns out the grand seiko 9s66 is a 44deg lift angle. Still struggling to find the correct one for the omega speedmaster moonphase - runs a lemania 1866 and might be 50? Not sure
Very happy with first "victim" tho [emoji56][emoji106]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...ab98623fea.jpg


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http://hiro.alliancehorlogere.com/en...ift_Angle.html

This is the site I use for lift angle data. 1° discrepancy equates to approximately 5° amplitude; if the lift angle is set too high the amplitude reading will be approx. 5° higher than it really is. Most watches have a lift angle between 48° and 54°, but the Omega co-axials are lower. Can`t recall exactly what the values are, but the different versions have different values. As ever, google is your friend.

If I come across something (usually old and lower quality) where there isn`t any data I leave the default setting at 52°, that's good enough to give an indication of whether the watch is running well or not.

Suggest you do some background reading around the subject, there's plenty of info out there.

Amplitude figures will vary depending on the movement. For an ETA 2824 or 2892 it's not uncommon to see over 300° in the flat positions fully wound, but on a 50 year old Omega 565 in good condition I`d be happy with 260°. If an old watch has significant wear and tear it's sometimes not possible to get the amplitude as high as it should be unless a lot of money is spent on replacement parts, you soon get into the realms of diminishing returns. Amplitude figures are helpful when assessing a watch but other factors have to be considered too. I`ve seen old watches that are filthy inside yet the amplitude is good, sometimes the oil dries up and the pivots are running dry which ironically gives good results, but the wear rate on the pivots will be accelerated.

Learning how to interpret the traces is all part of the fun too!

Paul

Paul

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Originally Posted by walkerwek1958

http://hiro.alliancehorlogere.com/en...ift_Angle.html

This is the site I use for lift angle data. 1° discrepancy equates to approximately 5° amplitude; if the lift angle is set too high the amplitude reading will be approx. 5° higher than it really is. Most watches have a lift angle between 48° and 54°, but the Omega co-axials are lower. Can`t recall exactly what the values are, but the different versions have different values. As ever, google is your friend.

If I come across something (usually old and lower quality) where there isn`t any data I leave the default setting at 52°, that's good enough to give an indication of whether the watch is running well or not.

Suggest you do some background reading around the subject, there's plenty of info out there.

Amplitude figures will vary depending on the movement. For an ETA 2824 or 2892 it's not uncommon to see over 300° in the flat positions fully wound, but on a 50 year old Omega 565 in good condition I`d be happy with 260°. If an old watch has significant wear and tear it's sometimes not possible to get the amplitude as high as it should be unless a lot of money is spent on replacement parts, you soon get into the realms of diminishing returns. Amplitude figures are helpful when assessing a watch but other factors have to be considered too. I`ve seen old watches that are filthy inside yet the amplitude is good, sometimes the oil dries up and the pivots are running dry which ironically gives good results, but the wear rate on the pivots will be accelerated.

Learning how to interpret the traces is all part of the fun too!

Paul

Paul

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Thank you for that Paul. Very useful. It's really quite fascinating tbh [emoji41]


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Here's the lift angle page I have bookmarked: http://pczw.uhren-mikl.com/downloads/gamma.pdf

Just in case you ever get into Russian watches:
Chaika - 13xx / 46°
Luch --- 18xx / 46°
Luch --- 22xx / 49°
Poljot - 2612 / 49°
Poljot - 2609 / 51°
Poljot - 2614 / 51°
Poljot - 3017 / 48°
Poljot - 3133 / 51°
Raketa - 26xx / 42°
Slava -- 16xx / 49°
Slava -- 24xx / 49°
Slava -- 5498 / 47°
Vostok - 24xx / 42°
Zarja -- 15xx / 43.33°
Zarja -- 16xx / 44.3°
Zarja -- 20xx / 44.3°
Chaika -- 13xx / 46°
Luch ---- 18xx / 46°
Luch ---- 22xx / 49°
Molnija - 36xx / 42°
Pobeda -- K26 / 42°
Poljot -- 2612 / 49°
Poljot -- 2609 / 51°
Poljot -- 2614 / 51°
Poljot -- 3017 / 48°
Poljot -- 3133 / 51°
Raketa -- 26xx / 42°
Slava --- 16xx / 49°
Slava --- 24xx / 49°
Slava --- 5498 / 47°
Vostok -- 22xx / 46°
Vostok -- 24xx / 42°
Vostok -- 28xx / 44°
Zarja --- 15xx / 43.33°
Zarja --- 16xx / 44.3°
Zarja --- 20xx / 44.3°

Just worked on a couple of Russian Vostocks 24xxxxx.......managed to find the lift angle and was surprised to see how low it is!

A Timegrapher's useful for checking the auto-winding's working OK. When the watch has stopped, give it 3 or 4 winds to just get it going, amplitude will be around 150°. Wear it whilst moderately active (preparing breakfast and clearing pots away is as good as anything!) then check the amplitude. If all's well it'll rise significantly after 1 hr activity and it should rise over a period of a few hours.

Some watches don`t auto-wind as efficiently as others, in some cases a watch is better hand-wound initially and the auto-winding will keep the power reserve maintained.

It's worth checking the figures for each watch in a collection and recording them. This gives something to compare against in the future.

Paul

Excellent thread, this - I'll be buying a Timegrapher at some point, so I'm squirreling away this info for later, thanks.

First results interesting - but two shocking results in a row now which is surprising for me since both run great and accurate and more importantly CONSISTENTLY accurate. Ones the SMPc coaxial. I might have to retest in the morning [emoji848]


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Can't see on any of the links - does anyone know the lift angle of the Omega SMPc blue coaxial? This one https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...625edb2d70.jpg


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Have you dared put your vintage watches on it yet?

I put my Longines on it but I had wrong lift angle so I'll redo that one. Only other one i have is my dads old rotary from 1968. Result was rather spectacular tbhhttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...d088a937e0.jpg. So of my 25 watches the timegrapher results have put a "?" Against 4 of them.

I'm gonna road test each of the 4 watches for a week each to see actual accuracy on the wrist then test them again and if still got a "?" then I'll explore having them looked at.

The 4 in question are the
Fortis B42 gmt chrono
Ginault ocean rover
Steinhart Black Sea
And the Longines 302L


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Is the Admiral no more?

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Originally Posted by Der Amf

Is the Admiral no more?

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Ah yes the admiral. It is no more in the sense that I don't own it. It does however reside in my house. Wife nabbed it [emoji35]


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Originally Posted by RustyBin5

Ah yes the admiral. It is no more in the sense that I don't own it. It does however reside in my house. Wife nabbed it [emoji35]


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What excellent taste she has ;) (I still think it was a bit rubbish of me to find it surplus to requirements) I suppose its strong styling and 34mm size makes it an excellent women's watch in 2018

Omega 2500D has a lift angle of 38° according to the Omega data sheet!

Whilst checking your watches I strongly recommend checking in all 6 positions and noting the results........I`m sure that'll prove interesting!

Bear in mind that the rate/performance on the wrist is what matters. When regulating an old watch I try to wear it for several hrs to get an 'on the wrist' rate. I record the rate overnight in dial-up position, if the difference is small the watch will be a consistent timekeeper. However, it's not unusual to see differences of several seconds and sometimes this can appear to contradict the timegrapher expectations.

I aim for an overall rate of between +1 and +3 secs based on 16hrs wear and 8hrs dial-up overnight, this works well even with older watches where positional errors are often bigger. Once the 'on the wrist' rate is known it's possible to make small corrections and moniter the effect by checking the dial-up rate, it isn`t necessary to wear the watch any longer.

Paul

Worthwhile checking crown down and 12 down against what's read in the horizontal positions. The variation will show how well the watch is running in these key positions. You'll see a drop of amp when going to the vertical positions, but if the rate and amp changes dramatically, that's a good sign that the watch needs some attention. Dial up and dial down should also be closely matched, if not it means one side of pivots or jewels are worn / dirty etc.
Paul can correct me if I'm wrong on any of this.

This is all good stuff guys. Biggest concern is the Fortis as the beat error is showing as 7.2 which is very high.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by walkerwek1958

Omega 2500D has a lift angle of 38° according to the Omega data sheet!

Whilst checking your watches I strongly recommend checking in all 6 positions and noting the results........I`m sure that'll prove interesting!

Bear in mind that the rate/performance on the wrist is what matters. When regulating an old watch I try to wear it for several hrs to get an 'on the wrist' rate. I record the rate overnight in dial-up position, if the difference is small the watch will be a consistent timekeeper. However, it's not unusual to see differences of several seconds and sometimes this can appear to contradict the timegrapher expectations.

I aim for an overall rate of between +1 and +3 secs based on 16hrs wear and 8hrs dial-up overnight, this works well even with older watches where positional errors are often bigger. Once the 'on the wrist' rate is known it's possible to make small corrections and moniter the effect by checking the dial-up rate, it isn`t necessary to wear the watch any longer.

Paul

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When recording the stats in all positions are there any positions that are more "important" than others? Or only useful in helping identify potential issues by way of spotting large variances in some positions


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Originally Posted by Bodo

Worthwhile checking crown down and 12 down against what's read in the horizontal positions. The variation will show how well the watch is running in these key positions. You'll see a drop of amp when going to the vertical positions, but if the rate and amp changes dramatically, that's a good sign that the watch needs some attention. Dial up and dial down should also be closely matched, if not it means one side of pivots or jewels are worn / dirty etc.
Paul can correct me if I'm wrong on any of this.

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I think you're spot-on! Dial up and dial-down should be in good agreement, but on older watches there's likely to be some wear on the balance staff causing the ends to flatten slightly and this will (usually) affect dial-up more than dial down assuming the watch has spent more time running in this position. If a balance pivot jewel hasn`t been cleaned thoroughly or oiled properly it'll cause a difference and it needs sorting out if the watch is being serviced.

Amplitude will invariably be lower in the hanging positions compared to flat, this can be more pronounced if the watch is worn or in need of service.

Wear in the escapement will show up as an increased beat error in some positions, but with careful adjustment a beat error below 0.4 should be achievable in all positions. Provided it's below 1.0 in most cases the performance of the watch won`t be significantly affected.......but a figure of 7 would definitely concern me! It's actually an easy correction to make provided the beat arm is moveable and not fixed, but a figure as high as 7 indicates some other problems. It's possible someone's moved the beat arm by mistake and it may be easy to rectify....Timegrapher is your friend when doing this!

If you get the back off you should be able to check the auto-winding visually (look for the ratchet wheel being moved slightly in both direction of rotor rotation) but if you test this with the watch in the microphone dial-down you can see the amplitude rise as the mainspring is tightened IF the watch is fully wound. Use a piece of Rodico to gently moved the rotor and the amplitude should rise to a point where the mainspring slips in the barrel and the amplitude will drop. This is a good way to check the barrel isn`t excessively worn on the walls, causing the spring to keep sliding.

Clever machines, these Timegraphers!

Paul

Interesting info there and throughout, cheers Paul! :)

That sounds logical but frankly beyond me. [emoji41]. Might have to have this one seen tohttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...1f58891ac5.jpg amplitude also very low on it

Oh and yes I have since added tape to the watch grip [emoji33]
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Make sure the crown is against the pickup on the edge of the stand, not against the sprung slide. Although I would say you're probably right with that one. Is it fully wound? (wound fully - 1 hour).

Tape on the watch grip is a must, just put a fresh piece on mine yesterday!

The Fortis isn`t a well watch by the look of things. Definitely ready for servicing judging by the amplitude....or lack of! Getting it back in beat will help a little but it's way down on where it should be. The rate isn`t too bad, suggesting someone's regulated it to compensate.

Paul

Good stuff and something I might also buy at some point soon. (I'm getting dangerously close to messing with some of the pieces in my flea market box.) At the moment I make do with an iPhone app, Timegrapher, alongside Watchtracker. They're both quite good, although you do need some peace and quiet for the former to work properly and Watchtracker depends on a seconds hand and your own accuracy at hitting the "now" button. It's helped me decide on when to send watches off for service and it's nerdy fun to be able to catalog with some timegraph/accuracy info.

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Originally Posted by walkerwek1958

Tape on the watch grip is a must, just put a fresh piece on mine yesterday!

The Fortis isn`t a well watch by the look of things. Definitely ready for servicing judging by the amplitude....or lack of! Getting it back in beat will help a little but it's way down on where it should be. The rate isn`t too bad, suggesting someone's regulated it to compensate.

Paul

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Any idea on likely cost of a service? I'm assuming Fortis won't do it - did they not go bust? Think it's a valjoux inside in any event


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Where did you find the 44 degree list angle info for the Seiko calibre 9S66? That data would cover quite a few of their higher end calibres but I've never found any concrete lift angle information and 44 degrees does seem low!

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Originally Posted by Thewatchbloke

Where did you find the 44 degree list angle info for the Seiko calibre 9S66? That data would cover quite a few of their higher end calibres but I've never found any concrete lift angle information and 44 degrees does seem low!

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You could be right. I've found it all but impossible to find GS lift angle - I noted the 44 angle from a site orologico.info but no idea if it's right tbh ☹️


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As far as I`m aware Seikos usually have a lift angle of 52° or 53°, never had hold of a Grand Seiko but I`d be surprised if it's as low as 44.

Are these iPhone timegrapher apps any good for the casually inquisitive ones among us?

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Originally Posted by ALindsay

Are these iPhone timegrapher apps any good for the casually inquisitive ones among us?

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It’s a fun app and I assume can’t be as good as the real thing. It plots the lines/scatter points and attempts the other measurements. Resting the crown on the phone near the microphone works best for me. Any loud noises during the process can upset the calculations, which in effect means quite a short measuring run. It would also be quite hard to measure in other positions. I’ll try to do a comparison as a new thread between the timegrapher photos I have from my watchmaker and what the app shows.

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Originally Posted by RustyBin5

When recording the stats in all positions are there any positions that are more "important" than others? Or only useful in helping identify potential issues by way of spotting large variances in some positions


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There is a logic in which positions you test. I like to work with all six but, a typical standard would be, if you wear the watch on the outside of your left wrist as most of us tend to.

Non chronometer rated:
Dial up: This mimics the hand resting palm down on a desk position.
9H: Where the "9" on the dial is uppermost. This mimics standing up, arm hanging down.
6H: Where the "6" on the dial is uppermost. This is the driving a car position.

If it's a chronometer, then you would add:
Dial down.
3H: Where the "3" on the dial is uppermost.

The last standard position is 12 High and is usually only used by watchmakers when setting up the movement as it's an unusual position for the watch to be in.

You can expect a drop in amplitude for vertical positions relative to horizontal but if you get large variations in amplitude between the two horizontal or the four vertical then you should ask your watchmaker. The rate should be very similar between the two horizontal positions but will be different in the verticals. Assuming amplitude is good, the main adjustments your watchmaker will make to get the verticals all similar (and close to the horizontals) will be the hairspring shape, how it fits in the regulator pin gap and the pin gap itself. This is not easy so I wouldn't recommend it.

Normally you test at full wind and then after 24 hours resting. With all those data points, you can work out the best position to leave your watch in overnight if it, for example, gains a little. In my experience, most collectors don't worry about the last refinement in timekeeping but I still like to set up a watch as best as possible as it's of interest to me.

Regards, Chris

Cool thanks Chris. Def getting the Fortis serviced if I can find someone to do it. I think I'll measure in 3 positions


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Really interesting thread, thanks Rusty for starting it.

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Originally Posted by khumzi

It’s a fun app and I assume can’t be as good as the real thing. It plots the lines/scatter points and attempts the other measurements. Resting the crown on the phone near the microphone works best for me. Any loud noises during the process can upset the calculations, which in effect means quite a short measuring run. It would also be quite hard to measure in other positions. I’ll try to do a comparison as a new thread between the timegrapher photos I have from my watchmaker and what the app shows.

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Thanks, much obliged

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Originally Posted by RustyBin5

Cool thanks Chris. Def getting the Fortis serviced if I can find someone to do it. I think I'll measure in 3 positions


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I meant to say that you won't get reliable results with a coaxial. The manufacturer may say it will read a coaxial but it won't do it correctly. For that, you need a specific program. I use a Witschi and you need to tell it that you're testing a coaxial so it can use a different piece of internal software. But the Witschi is a huge chunk of cash... If your amplitude and curves look bad, don't worry.

Just out of interest, my particular Chinese spare timegrapher is very close to my Witschi in terms of results so you can't complain at the price. It's obviously less capable in other ways than the more expensive kit but at the price they are, who cares.

I suppose the Fortis is based on a Valjoux 7750 so, you can use your usual watchmaker. They are very nice to work on and usually come out very well and run accurately.

Cheers, Chris

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Originally Posted by ChrisN

I meant to say that you won't get reliable results with a coaxial. The manufacturer may say it will read a coaxial but it won't do it correctly. For that, you need a specific program. I use a Witschi and you need to tell it that you're testing a coaxial so it can use a different piece of internal software. But the Witschi is a huge chunk of cash... If your amplitude and curves look bad, don't worry.

Just out of interest, my particular Chinese spare timegrapher is very close to my Witschi in terms of results so you can't complain at the price. It's obviously less capable in other ways than the more expensive kit but at the price they are, who cares.

I suppose the Fortis is based on a Valjoux 7750 so, you can use your usual watchmaker. They are very nice to work on and usually come out very well and run accurately.

Cheers, Chris

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Yeah the Chinese is about £100 but the Witschi was several hundred, but results the same / it just doesn't do the advanced options so China one is fine for my domestic use.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by ChrisN

There is a logic in which positions you test. I like to work with all six but, a typical standard would be, if you wear the watch on the outside of your left wrist as most of us tend to.

Non chronometer rated:
Dial up: This mimics the hand resting palm down on a desk position.
9H: Where the "9" on the dial is uppermost. This mimics standing up, arm hanging down.
6H: Where the "6" on the dial is uppermost. This is the driving a car position.

If it's a chronometer, then you would add:
Dial down.
3H: Where the "3" on the dial is uppermost.

The last standard position is 12 High and is usually only used by watchmakers when setting up the movement as it's an unusual position for the watch to be in.

You can expect a drop in amplitude for vertical positions relative to horizontal but if you get large variations in amplitude between the two horizontal or the four vertical then you should ask your watchmaker. The rate should be very similar between the two horizontal positions but will be different in the verticals. Assuming amplitude is good, the main adjustments your watchmaker will make to get the verticals all similar (and close to the horizontals) will be the hairspring shape, how it fits in the regulator pin gap and the pin gap itself. This is not easy so I wouldn't recommend it.

Normally you test at full wind and then after 24 hours resting. With all those data points, you can work out the best position to leave your watch in overnight if it, for example, gains a little. In my experience, most collectors don't worry about the last refinement in timekeeping but I still like to set up a watch as best as possible as it's of interest to me.

Regards, Chris

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I would just add that fully wound should be measured 30 minutes after fully winding the watch.

For a watch you don't know the lift angle of, release the mainspring power. Then very carefully wind the movement while monitoring the balance (adding a pen dot if needed to aid) until the balance starts turning 180 degrees. With practice this can be easily achieved.

Then adjust the lift angle on the machine until it reads 180 degrees amplitude.
Job done, lift angle found.

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Originally Posted by me32dc

I would just add that fully wound should be measured 30 minutes after fully winding the watch.

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Yes, forgot to mention that. You should also rest for 30 seconds after changing the watch position before re-starting the test - there's quite a bit to write about this sort of testing if you're to get the best results.

Thanks, Chris

Out of interest do they work with pocket watches? assuming some cunning means of attaching it

Scottie

Been wearing the Fortis . It's +0 after several hours on the wrist. Torn whether to send it for treatment or not


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They will work with pocket watches. You move the slider (which may not be obvious in the pictures) further across. For wristwatches, the crown should be against the microphone on the left but for pocket watches, I put the number 3 there and it works fine as they are usually quite loud. It should pick up any lever escapement but something like an old cylinder escapement has a different set of noises so it will give odd results.

You can use the timegrapher to get an idea of how your movement is performing but some of these will run perfectly well while being dry and dirty. You're also not testing all of the mechanism so there could be parts wearing even though the timegrapher says all is well. Just depends when it was last serviced. The timegrapher is just an indication of the performance at that point in time.

Then it's your choice:
If it's a fairly modern common movement with readily available inexpensive parts, you can service it when you are unhappy with the running or you feel something is wrong/has changed.
If it's old and the parts are scarce/expensive, probably better to stick to the 5-10 year service intervals.
Or just always stick to the 5-10 years regime.

Just as a caveat, I don't know any watchmaker who is short of work so I'm not trying to get people to follow any particular interval here.

Cheers, Chris

Agree 100%with Chris, it's easy for people to think the recommendations are put about by repairers looking for work but that's simply not true thesedays.

Just assembled a 1950s Omega bumper automatic tonight, a movement I really like despite the limited efficiency of the auto winding. The design's very robust but there are a couple of parts in the auto-winding that clearly need to be kept well-lubricated to preserve them. On old automatic watches it's usually the auto-winding parts that suffer if the watch isn`t serviced regularly. The modern stuff is more robust in this respect but most vintage watches aren't. It would make sense to have the auto-winding mechanism serviced more frequently in my opinion, especially if a vintage watch is used as an everyday wearer. In the majority of designs the auto-winding mechanism can be accessed easily without disturbing the rest of the movement, the repair trade has never embraced the concept of interim services ( a bit like cars) but I think there's some merit for certain models.

The 'if it ain't broke' brigade will continue to delude themselves, but this is definitely the wrong philosophy with an old watch.

With a vintage watch it's all about keeping it well-lubricated and keeping the wear rate on parts to an absolute minimum. Watch winders are a definite no-no for old watches..........but I`m sure someone will come along to contradict me on this because it's what they want to believe.

What can`t speak can`t lie, I`ve seen plenty of cases where a watch has suffered extreme wear because it's been used for many years without being serviced.

Paul

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Originally Posted by ChrisN

They will work with pocket watches. You move the slider (which may not be obvious in the pictures) further across. For wristwatches, the crown should be against the microphone on the left but for pocket watches, I put the number 3 there and it works fine as they are usually quite loud. It should pick up any lever escapement but something like an old cylinder escapement has a different set of noises so it will give odd results.

You can use the timegrapher to get an idea of how your movement is performing but some of these will run perfectly well while being dry and dirty. You're also not testing all of the mechanism so there could be parts wearing even though the timegrapher says all is well. Just depends when it was last serviced. The timegrapher is just an indication of the performance at that point in time.

Then it's your choice:
If it's a fairly modern common movement with readily available inexpensive parts, you can service it when you are unhappy with the running or you feel something is wrong/has changed.
If it's old and the parts are scarce/expensive, probably better to stick to the 5-10 year service intervals.
Or just always stick to the 5-10 years regime.

Just as a caveat, I don't know any watchmaker who is short of work so I'm not trying to get people to follow any particular interval here.

Cheers, Chris

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That seals it then, I shall have to get one, you just cannot have enough toys to fiddle with

scottie