There seems to have been a gradual shift towards this and other Americanisms. Why? Isn’t old fashioned English good enough any more?
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There seems to have been a gradual shift towards this and other Americanisms. Why? Isn’t old fashioned English good enough any more?
I’m sure we have took over some Americanisms but homicide isn’t one of them... Not as far as I’m concerned anyway...
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I could murder a cup of tea...
Try that with ‘homicide’...!
Hasn’t got the same ring to it has it...lolQuote:
Originally Posted by FazerBoy
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"This cuppa is about to become the tragic victim of a merciless homicide"Quote:
Originally Posted by FazerBoy
...you're right, it doesn't work.
They're technically different acts though, so shouldn't be used interchangeably anyway.
Not cool and edgy enough?!Quote:
Originally Posted by Slamdoor
Briefly, the OED defines homicide as "The action, by a human being, of killing a human being" and murder as "The deliberate and unlawful killing of a human being...". It has various quotations showing the use of the former, the earliest comes from Chaucer in Parson's Tale (c1386 )...Another homycide is that is doon for necessitee as whan o man sleeth another in his defendaunt, whereas murder dates back to Old English.
Too much tv watching going on i think.
It is still murder in the UK. That is what you get charged with and that is what you go to court for.
It could also be manslaughter or even not an offence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl.1
That bit is up to the courts!Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingstepper
Soldier kills an enemy in battle, it's homicide, nothing to do with courts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl.1
Reminded me of the start of Hart to Hart, voiceover by Max(?) the butler : "When dey met, it wuz moydah..."
But back to the question...
The difference (as mentioned) is intention.
The word murder has a distant origin in old English (also murdrum). I think homicide must have arrived with the Normans?
Or mixture of Greek and Latin, Homo + Cide, Geno + Cide, or Cato + Cide as demonstrated by some in 'How to stop cats using my garden as a toilet' thread?
OED gives the etymology of homicide, the noun, as: < French homicide (12th cent.), < Latin homicīda , < shortened stem of homo , hominis man + caedĕre , -cīdĕre to kill. A similar derivation is given for its use as a verb.Quote:
Originally Posted by VDG
As for murder the origin is given as: A word inherited from Germanic.. Its etymology is complex, ranging through Gothic, Indo-European, Sanskrit, ancient Greek, classical Latin, Welsh, Early Irish, Old Church Slavonic, Russian and Lithuanian.
Do you remember when our sirens went bee bah bee bah, and then gradually changed to those horrible American ones they had on starsky and hutch that go weeee waw weeee waw?
Well, murder became homicide a few years after that.
Say it’s not true!?
I agree, that is not murder, i thought the topic was about the increasing use of the word homicide in the UK and not murder because of the influence of American TV.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingstepper
They have homicides and we have murders. Of course the word homicide is valid for deaths but legally in tne uk you murder some- one still and not homicide them.
Is that not the case in America? See homicide and murder.Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl.1
You're right when you say that the topic is the increasing use of the word homicide in the UK and not murder, eg homicide investigation rather than murder investigation. Might that be because the former is technically correct? The Police investigate a homicide. They no longer have the power to lay charges and so take people into custody 'on suspicion'. It is not until it goes to Court that the case becomes one of murder.
My uncle George, who was a sergeant in the Northumberland Constabulary, had two shiny bells on the front grill of his black Wolseley police car. No need for horrible wah wah sirens then.Quote:
Originally Posted by seikopath
No need to dress like paramilitary either...……
George Dixon would be shaking his head in despair
It is true the word homicide is increasingly being used, is that a result of all the tv programs? I think it probably is. Nothing wrong with its use as language does evolve but the UK still charges for murder and the Police still investigate a murder if that is what they believe happened. And unless the law has changed and i missed it the Police still charge for murder if the facts and CPS support and recommend the charge. The case then get heard in court and the decision is made if the resulting conviction is for that or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by PickleB
A homicide of crows?
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisb
Stone them...:smile-new:
Sort of sounds better, and a little less evil.Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisb
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...sappeared-sea/
Perfect example, but this time with the word "manslaughter" instead of murder, or homicide. He admits killing his wife in order to inherit her estate. By the definition provided by an earlier poster from the OED, stating that the killing be premeditated and unlawful, how on earth has this been 'downgraded' to manslaughter?
I didn't phrase it very well and, as it turns out, the Police may charge some offences directly, but not murder. See link for:Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl.1
The division of charging responsibility
Police Charging Decisions
The police may charge:
(i) any Summary Only offence (including criminal damage where the value of the loss or damage is less than £5000) irrespective of plea;
(ii) any offence of retail theft (shoplifting) or attempted retail theft irrespective of plea provided it is suitable for sentence in the magistrates' court; and
(iii) any either way offence anticipated as a guilty plea and suitable for sentence in a magistrates' court;
provided that this is not:
- a case requiring the consent to prosecute of the DPP or Law Officer;
- a case involving a death;
- connected with terrorist activity or official secrets;
- classified as Hate Crime or Domestic Violence under CPS Policies;
- an offence of Violent Disorder or Affray;
- causing Grievous Bodily Harm or Wounding, or Actual Bodily Harm;
- a Sexual Offences Act offence committed by or upon a person under 18;
- an offence under the Licensing Act 2003.
CPS Charging Decisions
Prosecutors will make charging decisions in all cases not allocated to the police in paragraph 15. In a case where any offences under consideration for charging include an offence which must be referred to a prosecutor under this Guidance then all related offences in the case will be referred to a prosecutor to consider which should be charged.
In short...plea bargaining. See:Quote:
Originally Posted by doebag
Bennett entered the plea after US prosecutors reduced a charge of murder for the 41-year-old to one of unlawful killing without malice.
The prosecution are guaranteed a conviction, so saving time and money. The accused ends the uncertainty of outcome and consequences (and legal costs).
Its homicide if you watch Columbo ..if you don't its murder.
PickleB.
Not sure what your point is here? The police still charge, there is a process for that charge but that is what happens.
And, just a bunch of crows!
My point was that when the Police had charging responsibility they decided whether the charge was murder or not. Nowadays they investigate homicides (as they did in the past) but the decision about the case being one of murder is no longer theirs (although they will form an opinion and make a recommendation). I was proposing that this could explain a greater use of homicide rather than murder. I may be wrong...Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl.1
Nope.Quote:
Originally Posted by Owl1
Prescription: Murder
Murder by the Book
Blueprint for Murder
Fade in to Murder
Old Fashioned Murder
Murder Under Glass
Make Me a Perfect Murder
How to Dial a Murder
And my favourite...
The Bye-Bye Sky High IQ Murder Case
I think you are. They investigate murders. As they did in the past. The decision about the case being murder is theirs, the charge is decided and approved by CPS if they agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by PickleB
And...Dial M for murder?Quote:
Originally Posted by sean
Let’s not forget ‘Murder, she wrote’
On this side of the pond we had:
Sleeping murder
Murder at the vicarage
The murder of Roger Ackroyd
Murder in the Orient Express
And the line in Hot Fuzz with the WPC saying, 'Murrrrder'.
If you saw the film you will instantly recall.
Good point :eagerness: got to love 70's Columbo .Still Columbo is a homicide detective.Quote:
Originally Posted by sean
So what is your answer to the OP's question..."Why?"Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl.1
Ah why?
I think people watch a lot of American TV and adopt the terms. Our language does evolve and i think TV is now a major factor in that.
The Police themselves are not unnafected by this now calling their SOCO (Scenes of crime officers) officers CSI (Crime scene investigators) oddly enough after a show of that name hit our shores. Personally i think it is a shame and will, if it is not already, lead to a dumbing down of our language.
Imagine a thick, Glaswegian accent. 'There's been a homocide Mr. Taggart'.Quote:
Originally Posted by FazerBoy
Well Homicide has been in use in English law since at least 1957 (see the Homicide Act 1957) so I think it's safe to say that it's not a creeping Americanism as the OP suggests.
No one disputes the word is and has been in use. It is just its increased use now. OP is correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by DandyHighwayMan
:mrgreenskull:Quote:
Originally Posted by sean
Whether it's murder or homicide, you know we're in a big doo doo when when you read headlines like that
'We're leaving Britain because London is too dangerous': Family of 21-year-old Romanian who was stabbed to death three weeks after moving to UK return home to escape capital's epidemic of violence
Woody Guthrie, 1940:
Tom Joad, he met a truck driving man;
There he caught him a ride.
He said, "I just got loose from McAlester Pen
On a charge called homicide,
A charge called homicide."
So much bitter humor and irony in how Guthrie emphasizes that particular word,
ho-me-side. It has always struck me as being uniquely American, in the best possible sense.