Using Chrono24

Hi,
hitting 50 this year and the Mrs has offered a 5k budget for a present of my choice. Am thinking of another watch and would plan to add some money to this to get something special - either a Franck Muller Vanguard or a UN Dual Time. Looking on chrono24 it seems I could get either of these at a decent price but would need to pay VAT on imports from US but not from EU from the searches I've done, is that correct?
The dealers I've been looking at are Gemnation and Black Tag Watches in the US and Uhren Struck, Fitzrovia and Fabel GMbH in Eu. Searches on here seem to indicate Gemnation/Fitrovia are good to deal with but wondered if there was any experience here of these other dealers or any suggestions on alternative dealers I could try?
I was planning on using the dealers that support the 'Trusted Checkout' facility on Chrono24 and wondered if anyone had any experience of this as added protection?
Finally, visited London yesterday to check out the short list of models I had the Franck Muller Vanguard Yachting and the blue faced UN Dual Time 42 GMT as the final contenders. Any suggestion on the best sources for these would also be appreciated,
Cheers
Ian

Great looking watches, and yes, you're correct about VAT levied on both item & shipping when bought from a non-EU member state.
Just be sure to do your due diligence on whichever reseller you decide to opt for.

Just be careful as I found 2 dealer recently on Chrono24 to be crooks.

With a purchase of this level on C24 it's usually worth a budget flight and pickup in person. No genuine dealer would refuse.

Yes you most certainly will have to pay vat/import duty if ordered from the US. People can get around this by marking something as a gift but then you can’t insure the package and that would be a massive no go due to the value. A budget flight to the European dealer could add a nice ‘holiday’ element to your birthday.

Buyer beware as with any sale when using c24 but it sounds like you are doing your research.

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Originally Posted by speedish

Just be careful as I found 2 dealer recently on Chrono24 to be crooks.

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Sorry to hear that. Was that using the 'trusted checkout' facility?

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Originally Posted by Superman

Yes you most certainly will have to pay vat/import duty if ordered from the US. People can get around this by marking something as a gift but then you can’t insure the package and that would be a massive no go due to the value. A budget flight to the European dealer could add a nice ‘holiday’ element to your birthday.

Buyer beware as with any sale when using c24 but it sounds like you are doing your research.

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There will be no duty.

Give these a call on the UN

https://www.bicestervillage.com/en/s...ulysse-nardin/

Last time I was there they had a dual time, Can't recall the price but typically 50% off retail for what they have in stock

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Originally Posted by daveyw

Sorry to hear that. Was that using the 'trusted checkout' facility?

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No I didn't use the checkout. MJJones (waste of time). Suppose to be a well reputable trusted dealer, also advertising on instgram. In the end making all sorts of excuses to get out of it, or his staff.

I was told that it's a complete package and it's a new watch. But the papers are not here because they are with the owner. "But i'll get them" 2nd excuse, Rich people are hard to get hold of.. and all of this. Final one, send me "the money" and i'll make sure it's all here.. WHEN..? how many calls later? I've tried to call many times but you don't answer. Only a mobile number. No landline. Come on.. All bullshit. No dealer works like this.

I thought all the dealers used trusted checkout on Chrono 24 now so no real risk.
Money isn't released to them until you get the watch.
Is this not the case?

Sorry to hear. There do seem to be more and more 'dealers' on there recently with mobile numbers and postal addresses only.
I might consider using Chrono24 if done through the trusted checkout otherwise it's bricks and mortar shops or a trusted member on SC

I ditched a deal via the trusted check out because the exchange rate was dire and you're forced to pay in your native currency (in my case GBP) which they exchange.

Ended up establishing rapport with the dealer directly and bypassing Chrono24. Perhaps risky, but did some due diligence and it was all good.

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Originally Posted by Hood

I thought all the dealers used trusted checkout on Chrono 24 now so no real risk.
Money isn't released to them until you get the watch.
Is this not the case?

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I believe it's optional only, not a given.

On a separate note, if you google for 'Trusted Seller' complaints you'll find that the status is not particularly hard to attain, and is not necessarily stripped from a seller after complaint.

If I were buying on Chrono24 I'd be conducting the same due diligence as I would on any seller unknown to me, including asking for evidence of watch possession, checking their physical store on google street view etc.

I used Fitzrovia a few years ago. Very good service and they threw in a few 50 quid vouchers to use against future purchases.

Thanks for the responses, very helpful.
I'm planning to deal through 'Trusted Checkout' only if I go through Chrono 24 so that should give me the protection needed, in theory? Black Tag Watches in the US have provided a good quote on one that I want but I'm waiting for further quotes from Frost, Official Watches & Gemnation. Has anyone had any dealings with Black Tag Watches that they could share - I can find feedback on ebay/Chrono 24 which all seems positive? They list a website on their twitter account but when I try to access it doesn't seem to load.
Hopefully the remaining costs will come in tomorrow/Monday and I can then try and figure out which way to go.
Cheers
Ian

Another vote for the "cheap flight and eyes on" option here. When I bought my GO it was advertised in a bricks and mortar jeweller in Lyon, so I made contact directly and sorted out a deal. Got a cheap EasyJet hand luggage only flight over and back the same day, £120 IIRC. Well worth the piece of mind on a £5K watch, and of course it was a day out as well. The only downside was getting up at 4AM to get the plane..

Cheers,

Plug

I have purchased a watch through the trusted dealer route on Chrono 24. It was quick and easy. I asked for an invoice in £ Stg. The payment is held in escrow until such time that you have received the watch, and are happy. You inform C24, and the payment is released to the dealer. I ordered my watch, and received it via UPS 3 days later. As suggested, due diligence, and checking the dealers feedback helps.


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Originally Posted by Superman

Yes you most certainly will have to pay vat/import duty if ordered from the US. People can get around this by marking something as a gift but then you can’t insure the package and that would be a massive no go due to the value.

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Just to correct this:-

(a) Marking an item as a gift makes no difference whatsoever to the VAT due on it at import into the UK. Well, for clarity, there is a VAT allowance of £39 for gifts versus £15 for all other goods but clearly it makes no difference for most watches. In short, a lot of overseas vendors think that "Gift" makes a difference for expensive watches; it does not.

(b) You most certainly can insure a package sent as a gift!

(c) Note that the insurance value of a package does not necessarily have to be written on it. It depends on the insurer and the postal method. Indeed, there is no fundamental reason why the value written on the customs declaration necessarily has to match the insurance value. See what I wrote about it here: http://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.ph...=1#post3266935 and http://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.ph...=1#post3901640

(d) Many overseas vendors also believe that they can reduce import taxes due by misdescribing items. Again, as far as the UK is concerned, this is untrue. VAT gets applied to almost all imported items so a misdescription will not help. Vague descriptions of "time measuring instrument" or similar are also worthless.

(e) Worse, it is possible for import taxes to increase due to misdescribed items. This is because watches do not normally have Customs Duty applied whereas other items do attract Customs Duty meaning that, where an item is misdescribed, the recipient can potentially end up paying Customs Duty on an item on which they should not have had to pay it. This happened to me once: http://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.ph...=1#post4501848

(f) The only way to reliably evade import taxes (note, this is illegal and I am not recommending it) is to misdeclare the value of item, i.e. to show its value on the customs declaration as less than it is actually worth. This is what the vast majority of Chinese and other far eastern vendors do as a matter of course.

It seems we are in danger of getting a bit off topic here. The OT was regarding the experience of buying a watch from Chrono24.

The actual condition of a watch on arrival can only be objectively assessed once it has been delivered, and this risk has to be accepted by a buyer when purchasing a watch by mail from any seller, not just C24. At least with this company, using trusted seller, enables you to return your purchase without any hassle for a refund.



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Thanks again and some good advice coming through. Based on the prices coming through 'Time of Switzerland' have very good prices, good enough to consider a cheap flight to pick up in person. Although not via Chrono24, personal pick up can mitigate the risk. Anyone have experience of these guys? Searching seems to provide mostly positive feedback.

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Originally Posted by IanH

Thanks again and some good advice coming through. Based on the prices coming through 'Time of Switzerland' have very good prices, good enough to consider a cheap flight to pick up in person. Although not via Chrono24, personal pick up can mitigate the risk. Anyone have experience of these guys? Searching seems to provide mostly positive feedback.

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You are liable for VAT on Swiss purchases as not in EU

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Originally Posted by markrlondon

Just to correct this:-

(a) Marking an item as a gift makes no difference whatsoever to the VAT due on it at import into the UK. Well, for clarity, there is a VAT allowance of £39 for gifts versus £15 for all other goods but clearly it makes no difference for most watches. In short, a lot of overseas vendors think that "Gift" makes a difference for expensive watches; it does not.

(b) You most certainly can insure a package sent as a gift!

(c) Note that the insurance value of a package does not necessarily have to be written on it. It depends on the insurer and the postal method. Indeed, there is no fundamental reason why the value written on the customs declaration necessarily has to match the insurance value. See what I wrote about it here: http://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.ph...=1#post3266935 and http://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.ph...=1#post3901640

(d) Many overseas vendors also believe that they can reduce import taxes due by misdescribing items. Again, as far as the UK is concerned, this is untrue. VAT gets applied to almost all imported items so a misdescription will not help. Vague descriptions of "time measuring instrument" or similar are also worthless.

(e) Worse, it is possible for import taxes to increase due to misdescribed items. This is because watches do not normally have Customs Duty applied whereas other items do attract Customs Duty meaning that, where an item is misdescribed, the recipient can potentially end up paying Customs Duty on an item on which they should not have had to pay it. This happened to me once: http://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.ph...=1#post4501848

(f) The only way to reliably evade import taxes (note, this is illegal and I am not recommending it) is to misdeclare the value of item, i.e. to show its value on the customs declaration as less than it is actually worth. This is what the vast majority of Chinese and other far eastern vendors do as a matter of course.

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Excellent information again Mark, thanks.

(I wish this forum had a "like/thanks" feature, it would save quite a bit of "thanks" noise I think? Or is that a can of worms I shouldn't be opening?!?)

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Originally Posted by Hood

You are liable for VAT on Swiss purchases as not in EU

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Thanks. Their site includes an estimate for this and it still comes out favourable.

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Originally Posted by AndyGarton

Excellent information again Mark, thanks.

(I wish this forum had a "like/thanks" feature, it would save quite a bit of "thanks" noise I think? Or is that a can of worms I shouldn't be opening?!?)

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Agree with that - am a new user, but love the info here... brilliant!

Just to update after the feedback supplied by the forum, it looks like these guys are the most favourable on price and after having a discussion with them today, seem genuine. I am going to think about what to do, but seems like ordering through these guys and agreeing a pick up from their premises in Basel is a safe way to go - I've never been to Switzerland so could be a nice trip. Even taking into account the flight, taxes etc it seems like a deal at ~60% of RRP is hard to refuse.
If anyone has done this via these guy s then any feedback greatly appreciated.

Don’t forget to factor in the VAT when you bring the watch back. Some dealers in Basel used to offer to drive over the border and post from France, might be worth asking.

Thanks Danstone, that's covered on their website wrt cost and whether you want them to handle the duty process etc. Still working out much more economical to go this way rather than a UK dealer.

Whatever you do, don’t wear the watch back and post the box home. I heard that’s what a lot of people do.


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Originally Posted by Redwolf

Whatever you do, don’t wear the watch back and post the box home. I heard that’s what a lot of people do.

That wouldn't be acceptable, I believe.
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I've still not heard nearly enough from buyers who used the trusted checkout and then had problems and how chrono24 dealt with the issue, so I'd rather use ebay as I know how they run disputes. But best is to buy in person.

Agreed, probably best in person.

Since I originally contributed to this thread, I have bought a lovely Chronomaster from Chrono24 using trusted checkout. The seller was a dealer from Romania [emoji1205]
Very happy, the money is held in an escrow account until you get the watch. And they offer a 14 day period to check the watch etc
I would recommend personally.


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